Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:13 pm
oldbob wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:08 pm or 3) from the spirit of ChNNR via the World-wide Transmission of the Guru Yoga of Garab Dorje, on the web, as was done by ChNNR at many times before.
Seriously? from the spirit of ChNNR?
Wait, what?
That definitely doesn’t work.

I know that there are some teachers who say you can receive lung from a recording (and some who say you can’t), but I am under the impression that ChNN was very clear that he did not accept this even for lung, and certainly not for DI.
Last edited by climb-up on Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:40 pm
Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:18 pmMaybe Rinpoche saw how the community couldn’t collaborate well and he was okay with things dying out over time. 🤷🏼‍♀️
He actually said it would be like Buddha's original sangha of monks, which broke into eighteen divisions. And that division was foretold by a dream of King Kṛkin, during the time of Buddha Kāśyapa. Kṛkin had a dream where he saw eighteen men tugging on one sheet of cloth, but the Buddha Kāśyapa interpreted the dream for him, saying it represented the sangha of Buddha Śākyamuni splitting into eighteen divisions, but the cloth itself would remain whole.
The conversation has progressed since this post (tonsome very strange places! 😂), but this is very heartening to me.

I haven’t been too personally worried about it, but it’s odd to me that ChNN wouldn’t not have made any clear, workable plan for the continuation of the DC as a vehicle of transmission. He was very smart, obviously, and even though he had some plans, like the SMS that didn’t work out quite the way he’d expected, it seems like he certainly would have foreseen some issues with not have a successor or successors.

Well, it appears that not only did he foresee the problems, but perhaps even foresaw that if he had named a successor it wouldn’t have worked anyways (obviously that’s just a guess).

Anyways, it seems that things are more less going according to plan after all.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 61#p381061

It remains for each individual to work out their spiritual path - with diligence.

ob

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

climb-up wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:07 pm
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:13 pm
oldbob wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:08 pm or 3) from the spirit of ChNNR via the World-wide Transmission of the Guru Yoga of Garab Dorje, on the web, as was done by ChNNR at many times before.
Seriously? from the spirit of ChNNR?
Wait, what?
That definitely doesn’t work.

I know that there are some teachers who say you can receive lung from a recording (and some who say you can’t), but I am under the impression that ChNN was very clear that he did not accept this even for lung, and certainly not for DI.
not from recording, from SPIRIT!!! :rolling: (holly .... spirit!)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

oldbob wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:23 pm https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 61#p381061

It remains for each individual to work out their spiritual path - with diligence.
In any case, the whole principle of hereditary lineages is unworkable and not what the Buddha intended at all:

1. Now the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Ananda, saying: "It may be, Ananda, that to some among you the thought will come: 'Ended is the word of the Master; we have a Master no longer.' But it should not, Ananda, be so considered. For that which I have proclaimed and made known as the Dhamma and the Discipline, that shall be your Master when I am gone.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn ... .vaji.html

So it is at present. The method of how to find a teacher and rely on a teacher exists in the sutras and tantras of the Buddha. The words of our teacher, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu are fully in accordance with the words of sūtra and tantra, and there is no contradiction with them at all.

The institutional paralysis of the DC will eventually pass, or not, but even if ChNN's direct lineage dies out, his mark on the world will be noted. Fortunately, there are sufficient numbers of people out there who can properly pass on the essence of the Dzogchen teachings.

And with any teacher of course, caveat emptor. There are many people out there who show a deer tail, but sell horse meat. Every teacher needs to be examined, as does every student.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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climb-up wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:16 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:40 pm
Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:18 pmMaybe Rinpoche saw how the community couldn’t collaborate well and he was okay with things dying out over time. 🤷🏼‍♀️
He actually said it would be like Buddha's original sangha of monks, which broke into eighteen divisions. And that division was foretold by a dream of King Kṛkin, during the time of Buddha Kāśyapa. Kṛkin had a dream where he saw eighteen men tugging on one sheet of cloth, but the Buddha Kāśyapa interpreted the dream for him, saying it represented the sangha of Buddha Śākyamuni splitting into eighteen divisions, but the cloth itself would remain whole.
The conversation has progressed since this post (tonsome very strange places! 😂), but this is very heartening to me.

I haven’t been too personally worried about it, but it’s odd to me that ChNN wouldn’t not have made any clear, workable plan for the continuation of the DC as a vehicle of transmission. He was very smart, obviously, and even though he had some plans, like the SMS that didn’t work out quite the way he’d expected, it seems like he certainly would have foreseen some issues with not have a successor or successors.

Well, it appears that not only did he foresee the problems, but perhaps even foresaw that if he had named a successor it wouldn’t have worked anyways (obviously that’s just a guess).

Anyways, it seems that things are more less going according to plan after all.
IME with other teachers, quite often they are very focused on Dharma teaching, and mostly let senior students handle administrative stuff, maybe sometimes acting as a "consultant" for how things should be done, but not always as a director. I am ignorant as to whether or not Rinpoche was like this or not, nor to what degree but honestly it would not surprise me because teaching as he did is itself a full time job, which could easily eclipse prolonged focus on organizational issues. So while the succession thing is it's own deal, administrative and organizational stuff, it wouldn't surprise me if he was out of the day to day on that.

He was a quite unusual person after all though so it wouldn't surprise me to know that he was an exception here, either....

This is one of the reasons that I personally always look with some skepticism on claims of "Well Rinpoche said it should be like this" about everything under the sun, particularly when they are not backed up by quotes from Rinpoche himself.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:36 pm

This is one of the reasons that I personally always look with some skepticism on claims of "Well Rinpoche said it should be like this" about everything under the sun, particularly when they are not backed up by quotes from Rinpoche himself.
ChNN said many things to many people, some statements directly contradicting other statements. The notion one can take in a whole gem with a thousand facets by looking at only one facet is a delusion.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:40 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:36 pm

This is one of the reasons that I personally always look with some skepticism on claims of "Well Rinpoche said it should be like this" about everything under the sun, particularly when they are not backed up by quotes from Rinpoche himself.
ChNN said many things to many people, some statements directly contradicting other statements. The notion one can take in a whole gem with a thousand facets by looking at only one facet is a delusion.
I agree with that, even when quotes are provided they tend to be open to interpretation and not directly linked to the claim. At least they are quotes though. I have seen all manner of claims made about the DC, the status and importance of membership, what Rinpoche wanted with this, that or the other thing, with *no* quote attached at all. I find it amazing that anyone would even consider claims framed like that, but maybe that's just me. Personally, I know how organizations work (and well, don't work) and so I am very skeptical about organizational claims made based on hearsay on Rinpoche's words.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:45 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:40 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:36 pm

This is one of the reasons that I personally always look with some skepticism on claims of "Well Rinpoche said it should be like this" about everything under the sun, particularly when they are not backed up by quotes from Rinpoche himself.
ChNN said many things to many people, some statements directly contradicting other statements. The notion one can take in a whole gem with a thousand facets by looking at only one facet is a delusion.
I agree with that, even when quotes are provided they tend to be open to interpretation and not directly linked to the claim. At least they are quotes though. I have seen all manner of claims made about the DC, the status and importance of membership, what Rinpoche wanted with this, that or the other thing, with *no* quote attached at all. I find it amazing that anyone would even consider claims framed like that, but maybe that's just me. Personally, I know how organizations work (and well, don't work) and so I am very skeptical about organizational claims made based on hearsay on Rinpoche's words.
Sat in on a hundred Gakyil meetings, and heard a hundred people claiming this was Rinpoche's vision and that was Rinpoche's vision, all fighting with each other. If you want to truly learn how to break samaya, join a Gakyil.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:40 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:36 pm

This is one of the reasons that I personally always look with some skepticism on claims of "Well Rinpoche said it should be like this" about everything under the sun, particularly when they are not backed up by quotes from Rinpoche himself.
ChNN said many things to many people, some statements directly contradicting other statements. The notion one can take in a whole gem with a thousand facets by looking at only one facet is a delusion.
Fair enough, to both points.
Nevertheless, this particular thing he said seems to have been accurate.
I do like the idea that he knew what was coming, but it doesn’t really make much of a practical difference:
Either way, those of us with transmission will continue to work with transmission, and seek out qualified teachers if we need to further our learning, and those qualified to teach will undoubtedly teach.

I mean, what the worst case scenario?
This particular lineage dies out, we all achieve buddhahood within the next 500 years or so (presumably less for most you all, but my practice will probably take a bit longer) and then we can take everyone we’ve made contact with as our heart students and give them the most perfect teachings for them at that time and place.

Something like that right?
I mean, I’m definitely preferring that the lineage continues, I’m just saying…
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:48 pm If you want to truly learn how to break samaya, join a Gakyil.
Oh snap!
Well, that’s how it goes with worldly organizations.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:34 pm
fckw wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:54 pm This is why he taught the way _all_ Nyingma teachers do, extensively teaching on gzhi khregs chod combined with anuyoga transformation practices until people are ready to practice the path, lhun grub thogal, which almost no one does seriously.
Just to understand this sentence - what do you mean, "almost no one does seriously"? What's lacking here, right effort, or right view (and thus understanding of the path), or anything else? In what sense do you mean people are not ready to practice lhund drup thogal?
In general, people should not practice thogal until they have understood the view, khregs chod, and stabilized it very firmly. That view is not an intellectual view, but is based on the experience of the nature of the mind during empowerment. That experiential view should be very stable. ChNN taught thogal very infrequently, largely because it is clear he had doubts about people's stability in the view.

Now, of course, there is no one who will continue those transmissions in the DC unless or until something changes.
Ok, now it's clear. Thanks for explaining.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

climb-up wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:53 pm
Something like that right?
Hopefully, we will do our best.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Danny »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:45 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:40 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:36 pm

This is one of the reasons that I personally always look with some skepticism on claims of "Well Rinpoche said it should be like this" about everything under the sun, particularly when they are not backed up by quotes from Rinpoche himself.
ChNN said many things to many people, some statements directly contradicting other statements. The notion one can take in a whole gem with a thousand facets by looking at only one facet is a delusion.
I agree with that, even when quotes are provided they tend to be open to interpretation and not directly linked to the claim. At least they are quotes though. I have seen all manner of claims made about the DC, the status and importance of membership, what Rinpoche wanted with this, that or the other thing, with *no* quote attached at all. I find it amazing that anyone would even consider claims framed like that, but maybe that's just me. Personally, I know how organizations work (and well, don't work) and so I am very skeptical about organizational claims made based on hearsay on Rinpoche's words.
JD are you talking about teaching Rinpoches transmission?
Because for me transmission can only occur if there’s something to transmit, the teacher must be in the state where that can occur. And I don’t see any folks at that level and dedicated to a life of following that through.
I liked very much the analogy of scaring pigeons with a loud sound, pigeons also are singularly focused on what’s on the ground directly in front of them whilst pecking at seeds. Maybe the DC folks need a short sharp shock to wake them up?

Good luck to that group. Haven’t been around that sangha since 2016, it was in decline back then.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:48 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:45 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:40 pm

ChNN said many things to many people, some statements directly contradicting other statements. The notion one can take in a whole gem with a thousand facets by looking at only one facet is a delusion.
I agree with that, even when quotes are provided they tend to be open to interpretation and not directly linked to the claim. At least they are quotes though. I have seen all manner of claims made about the DC, the status and importance of membership, what Rinpoche wanted with this, that or the other thing, with *no* quote attached at all. I find it amazing that anyone would even consider claims framed like that, but maybe that's just me. Personally, I know how organizations work (and well, don't work) and so I am very skeptical about organizational claims made based on hearsay on Rinpoche's words.
Sat in on a hundred Gakyil meetings, and heard a hundred people claiming this was Rinpoche's vision and that was Rinpoche's vision, all fighting with each other. If you want to truly learn how to break samaya, join a Gakyil.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:40 pm
Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:18 pmMaybe Rinpoche saw how the community couldn’t collaborate well and he was okay with things dying out over time. 🤷🏼‍♀️
He actually said it would be like Buddha's original sangha of monks, which broke into eighteen divisions. And that division was foretold by a dream of King Kṛkin, during the time of Buddha Kāśyapa. Kṛkin had a dream where he saw eighteen men tugging on one sheet of cloth, but the Buddha Kāśyapa interpreted the dream for him, saying it represented the sangha of Buddha Śākyamuni splitting into eighteen divisions, but the cloth itself would remain whole.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Karma Dorje »

Everyone who received the transmission from the Master, practices according to instructions, and achieves the signs of practice can then transmit the practice to others. Organizations don't own the transmission. At best they can set certain standards for who can teach and how the teachers conduct themselves in public.

The real question is who one trusts. Putting trust in organizations to perform due diligence seems perilous out of the gate. If one has already received transmission from ChNNR and understood the central point clearly, one can trust in that. All that is left is practicing with confidence.

If we want Rinpoche's terma to prosper, it's on each of us to practice with the same enthusiasm we clutch our pearls at each new imagined outrage. We must ourselves become trustworthy guides. All the rest is simply musical chairs.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Kurp »

Karma Dorje wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:38 pm The real question is who one trusts.
Yeah. Not looking so good.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Kurp wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:40 pm
Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:18 pmMaybe Rinpoche saw how the community couldn’t collaborate well and he was okay with things dying out over time. 🤷🏼‍♀️
He actually said it would be like Buddha's original sangha of monks, which broke into eighteen divisions. And that division was foretold by a dream of King Kṛkin, during the time of Buddha Kāśyapa. Kṛkin had a dream where he saw eighteen men tugging on one sheet of cloth, but the Buddha Kāśyapa interpreted the dream for him, saying it represented the sangha of Buddha Śākyamuni splitting into eighteen divisions, but the cloth itself would remain whole.
Speaking of My Reincarnation, Malcolm, is this you in the background?:

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Karma Dorje wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:38 pm Everyone who received the transmission from the Master, practices according to instructions, and achieves the signs of practice can then transmit the practice to others. Organizations don't own the transmission. At best they can set certain standards for who can teach and how the teachers conduct themselves in public.

The real question is who one trusts. Putting trust in organizations to perform due diligence seems perilous out of the gate. If one has already received transmission from ChNNR and understood the central point clearly, one can trust in that. All that is left is practicing with confidence.

If we want Rinpoche's terma to prosper, it's on each of us to practice with the same enthusiasm we clutch our pearls at each new imagined outrage. We must ourselves become trustworthy guides. All the rest is simply musical chairs.
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