Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Danny wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:45 am
Danny wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:49 pm

There’s precedent...
Not really, you didn’t understand the point of that story at all.
Yeah I did. The point was Rinpoche said he was totally focused in trechod. That he was committed to that, and eventually was informed, nudged, hey! What about your togal?
Malcolm
Don’t under cut...
The point of that story is that ChNN was being too cautious and allowing his instructions to go to waste because he was not applying them.

And appearances in a dream are just ones own mind, nothing else. ChNN had a remarkable mind.
User avatar
Josef
Posts: 2611
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Josef »

Virgo wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:55 am
Josef wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:51 am
Virgo wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:16 am
So do you think an dream DC should be started?

Virgo
Pretty sure I never said anything like that.
Okay, well just asking. That was being discussed in conjunction with the form.

Virgo
My point was really that it is nobodies business but each student and their guru what they do and how they apply those practices, everything else is just gossip and assumptions that we make about our vajra siblings. People have to be responsible for themselves, organizational policing and squabbling about who can do this or cant do that is just pointless.

Back to the form (which was obviously a joke), even if someone claims to have received teachings from someone in a dream who are we to determine the validity of that experience? It's absurd for anyone other than the individual, their guru, and their students (if applicable) to even bother analyzing such things.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

Josef wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:33 pm
My point was really that it is nobodies business but each student and their guru what they do and how they apply those practices, everything else is just gossip and assumptions that we make about our vajra siblings. People have to be responsible for themselves, organizational policing and squabbling about who can do this or cant do that is just pointless.
I feel you.
Josef wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:33 pm Back to the form (which was obviously a joke),
No, I am not sure that it is.

Virgo
User avatar
Dorje Shedrub
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:23 pm
Location: Indiana, USA

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:23 pm
climb-up wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:56 pm
There are lamas who are qualified to pass on ChNN's transmission, and will/are,
Who?
Some years ago I read about a lama in China that ChNN authorized to teach (not sure about DI). I thought this was in the area to where ChNN had visited before and was planning to return. I don't recall his name though. I think it was innThe Melong.
Homage to the Precious Dzogchen Master
🙏🌺🙏 Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
🙏🌺🙏
User avatar
Dorje Shedrub
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:23 pm
Location: Indiana, USA

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

Does anyone know why Yeshe would require a non-disclosure agreement? I don't understand this.
Homage to the Precious Dzogchen Master
🙏🌺🙏 Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
🙏🌺🙏
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2507
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Dorje Shedrub wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:23 pm
climb-up wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:56 pm
There are lamas who are qualified to pass on ChNN's transmission, and will/are,
Who?
Some years ago I read about a lama in China that ChNN authorized to teach (not sure about DI). I thought this was in the area to where ChNN had visited before and was planning to return. I don't recall his name though. I think it was in The Melong.
One Khenpo Yeshe Wangpo aka Yeshi Wangpo. "Kenpo Yeshe Wangpo I have already authorized to teach several different practices," writes Rinpoche in the 2016 letter.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6288
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Dorje Shedrub wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:02 pm Does anyone know why Yeshe would require a non-disclosure agreement? I don't understand this.
No one understand this.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
krodha
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by krodha »

Dorje Shedrub wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:02 pm Does anyone know why Yeshe would require a non-disclosure agreement? I don't understand this.
Perhaps he has been advised by counsel to try and conceal his statements and activities with the DC so that it does not have some sort of potentially negative effect on his professional life.

He’s always seemed to have a conflicted relationship with his father’s legacy and community.

He may find that much to his dismay, in some countries NDA’s aren’t all that enforceable.
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Natan »

:popcorn:
tinylocusta
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:25 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by tinylocusta »

First of all, I'd like to ask forgiveness of everybody whom I might have offended or might offend. There are no any bad intentions on my part (as, I hope, is the case with everyone else writing in this place).

Please, reflect a bit about what you are doing here. Maybe it seems natural to you because of social media, but what we are talking about are very serious things. And the way you express yourselves does matter. Some of people here decided to become Vajra Masters, so it is doubly important to be careful, for example when using words like "shitshow" against the actions of someone you may not like (especially based on hearsay!) but who is an important teacher for many others and at the very least your Vajra brother. Even tiny things matter. For sure most of you are familiar with the idea of tendrel and how it manifests sometimes. It could be a good word or seemingly insignificant gift that becomes a cause of something great, could be an innocuous snarky remark that becomes a cause of lack of positive circumstances, exhaustion of merit and so on. With all respect to Jax, we are not Jax people and we do have samayas to keep. Ask yourself before writing: are you 100% sure what is writing is true? I mean, seriously: if a part of your body was at stake, would you still claim what you wrote? Also, it looks like whenever people don't like something, they put the blame outside - on the rich, International Gakyil, Dzogchen Community, Yeshi, even Rinpoche. Seriously, please reflect on this.

Regarding Yeshi. It is obvious to me that many people seriously underestimate Him. He is not only extremely intelligent, but also very compassionate and caring. He will have a direct contact with you, bone to bone. Probably many people here remember the famous interview with Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche where he says he is an inferior guru because he is too afraid to speak directly to his students. He is not making it up, most teachers have this attitude. Yeshi will relate to you directly, and this is something extremely rare nowadays. Moreover, He is a holder of long and short lineages and has a large number of qualities that make Him unique as a person and as a teacher. Specifically, He is one of very few people who can guide modern people in an authentic way, without mixing teachings with modern inventions or making anything up. He has very deep knowledge of tantras and various methods of practice, especially the three series of Dzogchen, but also Vajrayana. I won't elaborate more as everybody knows He doesn't like when one speaks of Him in this way and I want to respect that, but seriously, people need to realize how extremely lucky we are to have such a person alive, and how fantastic it is that He agreed to give the Direct Introduction to interested individuals and to continue this process in the future. There is so much aggression in people here as to everything He does that is not in line with their expectations or that they don't understand. But if you reflect a little it becomes obvious what is more beneficial.

There are so many things people are confused about here. A simple example: the empowerments for the three inner tantras mentioned in the Precious Vase. When you read that fragment it is clear it is for people following the SMS training, and during this training there is something to learn about each of these. As entering the way of Mantra without receiving an initiation is negative, of course Rinpoche describes it and gives some alternatives for people who can't do that. It is perfectly normal. The suggestion that what Rinpoche was giving to everybody for His whole life works only if you are extremely lucky and that now people should flock to other teachers to receive Dupa Do and Guhyagarbha makes no sense! (btw when you go to Blye to receive Guhyagarbha you may want to ask earlier if you receive the whole thing, because normally it's given in parts.) Such statements are in direct contradiction to what He was teaching. Instead of receiving these initiations, people who haven't woken up should repeat what they received and sing the SoV. Of course if someone is doing SMS and studies the three inner tantras, that's a different thing.

Some things seem to be said just for the sake of being said, I see no other reason. For example that people don't understand the qualifications of the teacher because they prefer to party... Anyone who follows SMS is well aware of these things, regardless of their leisure preferences. In the Precious Vase Rinpoche quotes several pages about the necessary qualifications of teachers from Adzom Drugpa and Patrul Rinpoche. Other very clear quotes can be found in subsequent SMS volumes and sometimes Rinpoche would expand on them. So what is the reason for these remarks? Of course there are ignorant people everywhere, but it doesn't mean everybody is like that.

There are many more false things written here but I feel like I would act wrongly by discussing them. Also, for everything I've written above you can easily find 10 counter-arguments and discuss these ad nauseam. I have no interest in these kinds of discussions; what I'm asking you - that is people blaming everybody outside - to reflect a bit how much of it is a projection of your minds and how beneficial or harmful are the things you write here.

Thank you and again I am sorry for any negative feelings I might have caused, my sincere apologies.
User avatar
Tongnyid Dorje
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

I really, really dont want to be rude, but ... it is said, that we have to examine teacher. Nowdays you, thanks to the internet and social media like this one, can have thousands eyes everywhere you need to look. You can simply ask ppl about their experiences with someone, and so on. Thanks to internet I was able to read Yeshi´s statements which I posted some pages back asking simple question, if anybody would take empowerments/DI from a teacher, who confessed like that. This is not about slandering, everyone can check about that, its not secret at all.

Now in that light:
tinylocusta wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 pm Regarding Yeshi. (...) He has very deep knowledge of tantras and various methods of practice, especially the three series of Dzogchen, but also Vajrayana.
Just to refresh my memory: when he did his retreats to actualize all this tantras and methods?
krodha
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by krodha »

tinylocusta wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 pm Regarding Yeshi. It is obvious to me that many people seriously underestimate Him... I won't elaborate more as everybody knows He doesn't like when one speaks of Him in this way and I want to respect that, but seriously, people need to realize how extremely lucky we are to have such a person alive

The concerned parties in this thread would probably feel a great deal “luckier” if Yeshi actually demonstrated interest in leading the DC.
User avatar
Tongnyid Dorje
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

krodha wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:53 pm
tinylocusta wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 pm Regarding Yeshi. It is obvious to me that many people seriously underestimate Him... I won't elaborate more as everybody knows He doesn't like when one speaks of Him in this way and I want to respect that, but seriously, people need to realize how extremely lucky we are to have such a person alive

The concerned parties in this thread would probably feel a great deal “luckier” if Yeshi actually demonstrated interest in leading the DC.
Yes, for me, for example, I was doing my SMS I Level traning with Yeshi also. I mean, he was sitting next to me and was taking part in the training. I was naturaly expecting he will stand up as a teacher and lead community. Its normal to have family lineages. But then he said he dont believe in all reincarnation and "tibetan folklore" and so on....
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

tinylocusta wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 pm
There are so many things people are confused about here. A simple example: the empowerments for the three inner tantras mentioned in the Precious Vase. When you read that fragment it is clear it is for people following the SMS training, and during this training there is something to learn about each of these.
And Rinpoche made it very clear that everyone in the DC is to follow the base of SMS. So then?
As entering the way of Mantra without receiving an initiation is negative, of course.
Dzogchen is part of Mantra. Without empowerment, no Dzogchen. You want citations? I can give you many.

The sgra thal 'gyur is the gold standard here, and the sgral thal 'gyur insists that empowerment, samaya, etc., are all important. So does Longchenpa, which Rinpoche held up as the gold standard of Tibetan masters, no merely once, but many times.
Rinpoche describes it and gives some alternatives for people who can't do that. It is perfectly normal. The suggestion that what Rinpoche was giving to everybody for His whole life works only if you are extremely lucky and that now people should flock to other teachers to receive Dupa Do and Guhyagarbha makes no sense!
Since Rinpoche never gave the Guhyagarbha or long Anuyoga empowerment, his suggestion that people should receive then could only mean that people should seek out qualified teachers elsewhere, and receive them.
(btw when you go to Blye [???} to receive Guhyagarbha you may want to ask earlier if you receive the whole thing, because normally it's given in parts.)
It takes three days.
Such statements are in direct contradiction to what He was teaching.
No, they are not.
Instead of receiving these initiations, people who haven't woken up should repeat what they received and sing the SoV. Of course if someone is doing SMS and studies the three inner tantras, that's a different thing.
So now you are in a position to tell people what they ought and ought not do? You are just an anonymous voice on the internet, hiding behind a nym. If you had any courage whatsoever, you would post in your real name.
Some things seem to be said just for the sake of being said, I see no other reason. For example that people don't understand the qualifications of the teacher because they prefer to party...
There are a lot of people in the DC who have been following Rinpoche for years, who still know nothing. It's not his fault. But it's good they have faith in him. At least that much will gain them birth in a dharma family in their next life.
Anyone who follows SMS is well aware of these things, regardless of their leisure preferences. In the Precious Vase Rinpoche quotes several pages about the necessary qualifications of teachers from Adzom Drugpa and Patrul Rinpoche.
And people never read these things. Or if they read them, they forget them, and so on.
There are many more false things written here but I feel like I would act wrongly by discussing them.


Then your remarks are kind of pointless, no?
Also, for everything I've written above you can easily find 10 counter-arguments and discuss these ad nauseam. I have no interest in these kinds of discussions; what I'm asking you - that is people blaming everybody outside - to reflect a bit how much of it is a projection of your minds and how beneficial or harmful are the things you write here.
No one is blaming anyone for anything. We are just observing the real situation. The real situation is that the DC Is dead in the water and sinking fast. All compounded things are impermanent. C'est la vie.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

Tinylocusta, are you aware of how amazingly inconsistent you appear when you spend sentence after sentence, nay paragraph, explaining to people how they should not break samaya, disrespect other people's teachers, or vajra sibs, and then go on to claim that your teacher is one of only a few alive capable of leading students to liberation?

[emphasis added]
tinylocusta wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 pm Specifically, He is one of very few people who can guide modern people in an authentic way, without mixing teachings with modern inventions or making anything up.
Virgo
Last edited by Virgo on Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:18 pmMaybe Rinpoche saw how the community couldn’t collaborate well and he was okay with things dying out over time. 🤷🏼‍♀️
He actually said it would be like Buddha's original sangha of monks, which broke into eighteen divisions. And that division was foretold by a dream of King Kṛkin, during the time of Buddha Kāśyapa. Kṛkin had a dream where he saw eighteen men tugging on one sheet of cloth, but the Buddha Kāśyapa interpreted the dream for him, saying it represented the sangha of Buddha Śākyamuni splitting into eighteen divisions, but the cloth itself would remain whole.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:40 pm He actually said it would be like Buddha's original sangha of monks, which broke into eighteen divisions. And that division was foretold by a dream of King Kṛkin, during the time of Buddha Kāśyapa. Kṛkin had a dream where he saw eighteen men tugging on one sheet of cloth, but the Buddha Kāśyapa interpreted the dream for him, saying it represented the sangha of Buddha Śākyamuni splitting into eighteen divisions, but the cloth itself would remain whole.
You know I forgot about that completely. This is direct evidence that Rinpoche either knew directly or felt very, very strongly that this would happen, because he fully believed this.

Virgo
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Virgo wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:40 pm He actually said it would be like Buddha's original sangha of monks, which broke into eighteen divisions. And that division was foretold by a dream of King Kṛkin, during the time of Buddha Kāśyapa. Kṛkin had a dream where he saw eighteen men tugging on one sheet of cloth, but the Buddha Kāśyapa interpreted the dream for him, saying it represented the sangha of Buddha Śākyamuni splitting into eighteen divisions, but the cloth itself would remain whole.
You know I forgot about that completely. This is direct evidence that Rinpoche either knew directly or felt very, very strongly that this would happen, because he fully believed this.

Virgo
The reality is that people have opinions, some people are threatened by those opinions, and make samaya threats, etc., forgetting that they are just imposing limitations on other people, trying to shut down uncomfortable conversations.

Now, there are certain natural limitations, like for example the one that says that one has to have a living teacher to enter secret mantra, and so on. That's one teacher has to measure up to certain qualifications to be a teacher. And the fact that these days, a perfect teacher is almost impossible to find.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

I deleted a message here because I decided not to mention something online again (a certain condition) but I did in the post. So I went to pm the member about it and I see "some members have disabled their private message receipt" :rolling:

Virgo
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2507
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:04 pm
tinylocusta wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 pmRinpoche describes it and gives some alternatives for people who can't do that. It is perfectly normal. The suggestion that what Rinpoche was giving to everybody for His whole life works only if you are extremely lucky and that now people should flock to other teachers to receive Dupa Do and Guhyagarbha makes no sense!
Since Rinpoche never gave the Guhyagarbha or long Anuyoga empowerment, his suggestion that people should receive then could only mean that people should seek out qualified teachers elsewhere, and receive them.
(btw when you go to Blye [???} to receive Guhyagarbha you may want to ask earlier if you receive the whole thing, because normally it's given in parts.)
It takes three days.
The thing is, the DC (or parts of it) are sometimes close to being a sect. I am sick and tired of hearing DC people denigrating other Vajrayana teachers and other Vajrayana traditions. There is that story that the DC is entirely and objectively superior to absolutely every other sangha, because here one can "practice Dzogchen" straightaway, instead of "wasting time" on ngondro or yidam or whatever Tibetan nonsense "those lower-capacity people" tend to "waste time" on; all one needs is Guuru Yoga three times daily, and bam! magick (entirely unavailable to those poor lower capacity morons) happens; no need to exert oneself, or learn fancy complicated things, or spend hours daily practising (which is so great! Since it means one can be a great Dzogchenpa while also pursuing eight worldly dharmas to satiety). In such a reality, obviously one has no need of getting Dupa Do or Guhyagarbha, or "wasting time" on such medieval nonsense as Three Roots practice.

This is patently horrible, and of course rests on an utter, and noxious, misreading of what Rinpoche taught.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
Locked

Return to “Dzogchen”