Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

oldbob wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:59 pm "But in Dzogchen you need to have a very precise knowledge and at least some stability in it."

Tinylocusta is exactly correct. But then there is Dzogchen, and Direct Introduction and yeshe.

“It is complicated but not impossible, by examining the words of ChNN, to figure out what is going on. Perhaps it is just a confusion of the multiple meaning of words. Perhaps, sometimes the words “Yeshe”, “Direct Introduction”, and “Dzogchen” have several meanings, narratives and usages, when used in different contexts by people of different understandings. Perhaps each is correct within their own dimension.

While understanding this, the key political take-a-way in the context of what is happening today in the Dzogchen Community, is that perhaps new definitions, usages and narratives (adding new-age interpretations) for these words allows a new political teaching structure to arise that has very little to do with the former teaching structures, or with the clear guidance of ChNN as to who can teach, and what can be taught, within the IDC.

So today, we have famous “Instructors” praising this new use of words and the new social teaching hierarchy that results within the Dzogchen Community as to who can teach what, under the brand of the Dzogchen Community. What is the motivation of these Instructors and how do they personally benefit by endorsing a perhaps politically motivated new use of these words?”


ChNN's Direct Introduction was always "Generous", easy and regular, and never limited to just a few people in front of him who sign non-disclosure agreements. His Direct Introduction reached to the ends of the universe.

Stability means that you have no hope or fear so you are not afraid to get up in front of 7000 (any number) and give Direct Introduction and explanations.

Please read the wise words of ChNN in the two communications of 2016 about who can teach, and about what his children are allowed to teach.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 79#p598479

ob

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So who would this famous instructors be and what are the new languages they are making up?

This is just hearsay
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

PeterC wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:56 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:26 pm PS. The word transmission and the phrase "giving transmission" are indeed used in DC parlance in a unique way. "Giving transmission" seems to denote something essentially different from giving a wang (or a lung, or tri, for that matter), and not entirely synonymous with "giving direct introduction" either. It is indeed as if it were tantamount to plugging one in, or resetting a fracture, a one-time mechanical action which, once it is done, it is just done, now others may take over. And "transmission" feels an almost tangible thing, one which is passed over from person to person (just think of "have you got the transmission?").
This is one of the frustrating things about the DC. You would think if they were going to use this term so often they would understand what it means.
Who are "they"?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Pero »

PeterC wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:24 am Outside of ChNNr's own termas, everything else he taught can be found with other teachers (though tracking down termas of Ayu Khandro and Changchub Dorje would be an interesting exercise), though not in such a convenient package, so we don't need to worry so much about their preservation.
Don't know about Ayu Khandro but Changchub Dorje has a grandson who probably has his termas and is a terton himself IIRC.
The second practical issue is what happens to the library of material he authored; it would be a shame if that also vanished but I suspect that like all written and recorded material it will eventually be available for free somewhere. Who knows.
A lot of it is already pirated and available online. I wouldn't touch this though because personally I think that whoever put it online broke their samaya. The first person most certainly. Similar problem is then with making other Rinpoche's teachings available "free for all".
The final question is what happens institutionally to the DC. I don't have much interest in this question except insofar as it affects question #1, because it's just samsara. The DC seems intent on making itself first irrelevant then extinct. So be it. The rest of us should get on with our lives.
The DC is not supposed to be just some institution and Rinpoche certainly didn't see it that way. But for those like me that are more on the outskirts, who don't have much contact with others from DC, this might not be easy to see. Of course in the end maybe it did become an institution and maybe it was headed there since the beginning since, well, samsara, as you say. I do recommend reading "Teaching in a Perfect Way" to everyone who was Rinpoche student if they haven't already. I think it is pertinent. Personally was a bit sad reading it (haven't finished completely yet actually) because it showed me many of my failings as a student.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Pero wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:31 pm The DC is not supposed to be just some institution and Rinpoche certainly didn't see it that way
This is why it is difficult for some (me, for instance) to just give up on the DC, and why we still argue about these things here. Even though
Pero wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:31 pmin the end maybe it did become an institution and maybe it was headed there since the beginning since, well, samsara, as you say.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Sorry - I got the web address wrong.


Please make the effort to read the actual words of ChNN about who can teach and what he allowed his children to teach.


https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 19#p598719


ob

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Bob:

We know.

oldbob wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:04 pm
Please make the effort to read the actual words of ChNN about who can teach and what he allowed his children to teach.
If one goes by that letter and takes it literally, Dzogchen Community is dead in the water and sinking rapidly. YMMV.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Yes, the words of ChNN in the two communications of 2016, as to who can teach, mostly relate to the specific situation while he was alive, but they also pointed to the present time, when we are being asked to observe ourselves, work with circumstances, do our best and collaborate.

Please read the actual words of ChNN, in both communications of 2016 as to who can teach, and look for what is applicable to our world today.


https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 19#p598719
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

oldbob wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:48 pm Yes, the words of ChNN in the two communications of 2016, as to who can teach, mostly relate to the specific situation while he was alive, but they also pointed to the present time, when we are being asked to observe ourselves, work with circumstances, do our best and collaborate.

Please read the actual words of ChNN, in both communications of 2016 as to who can teach, and look for what is applicable to our world today.


https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 19#p598719
Well, as far as I know, there is basically no one in the community right now, apart from Adriano, who actually has the necessary skills in Tibetan and English to give empowerments. It is simply not enough to copy the meaning empowerments (don dbangs) Rinpoche used to give, let along the more complicated empowerments such as Longsal empowerment, or the empowerments for SMS, etc.. One has to be scholarly enough to know how to read the texts. Many people imagine that a direct introduction is enough. It may be for a few people with fantastic past life accumulations, but for most people it is not sufficient. This is why Rinpoche recommended that SMS people receive the Guhyagarbha, an Anuyoga empowerment in concise or long form, and the Khandro Nyinthig empowerment.

There are really an endless source of issues here that cannot be addressed in any comprehensive way by the IDC, and they have made it clear that there is nothing they can do.

Suppose someone starts giving empowerments and so on, of Mandarava. How can the DC sanction these? They can't. So, the DC still sinks. etc.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:01 pm Suppose someone starts giving empowerments and so on, of Mandarava. How can the DC sanction these? They can't. So, the DC still sinks. etc.
I also want to add, that the qualifications of who can teach Dzogchen are very specifically spelled out by Longchenpa in texts such as the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu, its commentary, based in authoritative Dzogchen Tantra like the Kun byed rgyal po, etc. One has to know how to give empowerments, understand secret mantra in general, have done the retreats, be skilled in the views of the various yānas, be able to answer questions, etc., etc. Its not sufficient to make a loud noise, like scaring a flock of pigeons.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:01 pmWell, as far as I know, there is basically no one in the community right now, apart from Adriano, who actually has the necessary skills in Tibetan and English to give empowerments. It is simply not enough to copy the meaning empowerments (don dbangs) Rinpoche used to give, let along the more complicated empowerments such as Longsal empowerment, or the empowerments for SMS, etc.. One has to be scholarly enough to know how to read the texts. Many people imagine that a direct introduction is enough. It may be for a few people with fantastic past life accumulations, but for most people it is not sufficient. This is why Rinpoche recommended that SMS people receive the Guhyagarbha, an Anuyoga empowerment in concise or long form, and the Khandro Nyinthig empowerment.

There are really an endless source of issues here that cannot be addressed in any comprehensive way by the IDC, and they have made it clear that there is nothing they can do.

Suppose someone starts giving empowerments and so on, of Mandarava. How can the DC sanction these? They can't. So, the DC still sinks. etc.
Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:19 pm
I also want to add, that the qualifications of who can teach Dzogchen are very specifically spelled out by Longchenpa in texts such as the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu, its commentary, based in authoritative Dzogchen Tantra like the Kun byed rgyal po, etc. One has to know how to give empowerments, understand secret mantra in general, have done the retreats, be skilled in the views of the various yānas, be able to answer questions, etc., etc. Its not sufficient to make a loud noise, like scaring a flock of pigeons.
Thank you, Loppon-la.

It is distressing that these things are not only unknown by most of us DC members but would invite utter disbelief and ridicule when pointed out.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:55 pm It is distressing that these things are not only unknown by most of us DC members but would invite utter disbelief and ridicule when pointed out.
This is because many times people were more interested in getting to the Meribar and partying after the teachings than paying attention to what the Boss was actually saying.

M
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:31 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:55 pm It is distressing that these things are not only unknown by most of us DC members but would invite utter disbelief and ridicule when pointed out.
This is because many times people were more interested in getting to the Meribar and partying after the teachings than paying attention to what the Boss was actually saying.

M
And thanks to them I have to read this f------g thread.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Hansei »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:01 pm Many people imagine that a direct introduction is enough. It may be for a few people with fantastic past life accumulations, but for most people it is not sufficient. This is why Rinpoche recommended that SMS people receive the Guhyagarbha, an Anuyoga empowerment in concise or long form, and the Khandro Nyinthig empowerment.
What are the options nowadays for a Rinpoche's student to receive the Guhyagarbha empowerment and the Khandro Nyinthig empowerment?

PS: Thank you for explaining things that way.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:31 pmThis is because many times people were more interested in getting to the Meribar and partying after the teachings than paying attention to what the Boss was actually saying.
Well. They could have read about it all in the Precious Vase or the Ati Treasury of Contemplation, or in the restricted transcripts of SMS retreats, where Rinpoche explains what it takes to be able to give empowerments (they could have also heard about it from, gasp, other teachers, whom Rinpoche trusted, and invited to our centres so that they give teachings). But somehow quite another story has become the master narrative.
Hansei wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:09 amWhat are the options nowadays for a Rinpoche's student to receive the Guhyagarbha empowerment and the Khandro Nyinthig empowerment?
In the EU, Gangteng Tulku regularly gives the Guhyagarbha wang as a part of his shedra programme. One can receive it from him whether one participates in the shedra or not: https://longchenrabjam.org/curriculum/

KN will be trickier.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Giovanni »

I think I see in this thread some sadness. Some refusal to accept things as they now are. It would be nice perhaps if Rinpoche had left clear instructions for the future development of the D.C. But he didn’t. I don’t believe that they are there if we look hard enough, or attempt to recreate what is passed. It is as it is. Perhaps this shows Rinpoche’s deeper wisdom.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

It is always good to take Wangs and Lung and Dharma explanations in the tradition that you are following. It is always good to take Teachings from Enlightened Masters like Gangtang Tulku.

So that the “pigeons don’t become frightened by a loud noise”, or the “drunks in the Meribar who were not paying attention to the Boss” become endangered through wrong views – it is good to discuss what is going on in the Dzogchen Community today and try to be helpful to clarify and ease “utter disbelief and ridicule.”

Paging through Richard Barron’s excellent translation of the Precious Treasury of Basic Space and I found NO /NO reference to who can teach Dzogchen. Not one. (I enjoyed reading this again!!!) Maybe someone was using a different translation. I am old and fuzzy-headed so maybe I missed something.

This book is available on Amazon. Perhaps this book is also available to read as a borrowed .pdf for those who cannot afford the high price.

This wonderfully done translation, by an accomplished Lama / practitioner captures words about the spirit of Dzogchen from within Dzogchen. Words about Dzogchen do not get better than this. But perhaps these words would have a different meaning from outside Dzogchen, so this style of presentation is only a useful key to Dzogchen if you are already within Dzogchen.

Certainly, anyone who is sincerely interested in words about Dzogchen should read all the true words of the Omniscient Longchenpa and commentaries, and all the works of the enlightened Rigdzin Jigme Lingpa as well reading the brilliant Dzogchen tantras of ancient times.

Perhaps someone who is a scholar can dig out where it is written about who can teach Dzogchen. Direct quotes with attribution would be helpful for scholarly purposes. Perhaps this would be interesting to scholars.

So again, there is “Dzogchen” which refers to words about “Dzogchen” and there is “Dzogchen” which refers to the direct experience of Dzogchen which is beyond any possibility of being captured by words. Like trying to write on air or water. Yet all words and intellectual forms are included.

So yes, it is a very good idea to read the most precious Seven Treasures and the commentaries and the translations of the ancient wisdom of the Dzogchen Tantras if you want to learn true words about Dzogchen.

Perhaps the direct experience of Dzogchen is something different, and so for this, we need a Direct Introduction and the Secondary Practices to develop confidence. So, the practice – Transmission Lineage is something different than words – though it includes all words about Dzogchen.

So yes, it is important to take Wangs and Lungs in the tradition(s) you are following - if the opportunity arises. I threw the flower for the Longsal Wang 3 times. Perhaps what was recommended to the SMS students was not recommended for the other 7000. And so the Buddha Dharma is presented in 80,000 (means many) different forms from the very elaborate to the completely unelaborate so that there would be something for everyone. Since the SMS students enjoy elaboration it was appropriate for ChNN to suggest that they take empowerments that were not suggested for the other 7000 students.

So, words about Dzogchen and Wangs and Lungs are important, but perhaps most importantly we need confidence in our Teacher and in the words of our Teacher. Here in this forum of DW, our Teacher is ChNN.

In the two communications of 2016 about who can teach, ChNN set forth his straightforward and common-sense requirements as to who can teach.

Yes, the words of ChNN in 2016 mostly relate to the specific situation while he was alive, but ChNN also pointed out how to go forward in the present time, when we are being asked to observe ourselves, work with circumstances, do our best and collaborate, when there is no Enlightened Master to go to within the Dzogchen Community.

Perhaps there were no requirements for giving Wangs and Lungs in the words of ChNN about who can teach.

Perhaps requirements for Wangs and Lungs are put forwards by scholars who wish to maintain a hierarchy of who can teach Dzogchen within the Dzogchen Community.

Perhaps to the extent that written words and Wangs and Lungs establish confidence in encouraging practice and in Instant Presence they are useful to the Dzogchen Practitioner.

Perhaps there are other ways of doing the same thing. Perhaps one moment of Instant Presence is the single point that includes all.

Perhaps none of the Mahasiddhas were scholars, or if they were, they first had to overcome their attachment to words.

Please read the actual words of ChNN's "Deeper Wisdom", as to who can teach, and look for what Rinpoche wrote that is applicable to our world today. Perhaps if the Dzogchen Community ignores the clear words of ChNN as to who can teach, you get what you find today.

Sadness is not the issue - at all. The issue is what Teaching forms best reflect and continue the Dzogchen Transmission Lineage of ChNN.

Please read the words of ChNN and consider if this "deeper wisdom" is being followed by current management. Maybe we need new management.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 19#p598719

OB

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Last edited by oldbob on Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

oldbob wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:04 pm
Paging through Richard Barron’s excellent translation of the Precious Treasury of Basic Space and I found NO /NO reference to who can teach Dzogchen. Not one. (I enjoyed reading this again!!!) Maybe someone was using a different translation. I am old and fuzzy-headed so maybe I missed something.
Yes, it is specified in the commentary in great detail in chapter 11, only very briefly in the root text, in the same chapter.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

oldbob wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:04 pm
Perhaps requirements for Wangs and Lungs are put forwards by scholars...
No, these things are stated very clearly in the Dzogchen tantras.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Josef »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:14 pm
oldbob wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:04 pm
Paging through Richard Barron’s excellent translation of the Precious Treasury of Basic Space and I found NO /NO reference to who can teach Dzogchen. Not one. (I enjoyed reading this again!!!) Maybe someone was using a different translation. I am old and fuzzy-headed so maybe I missed something.
Yes, it is specified in the commentary in great detail in chapter 11, only very briefly in the root text, in the same chapter.
Page 308 is where the discussion of the qualifications of the guru begins in Barron's translation of the commentary for those who are interested in looking it up.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Perhaps rules are written to establish the establishment, as well as giving good counsel as to what works and what does not work to allow society to function in a good way.

:rules:

Perhaps the Mahasiddhas did not read the Dzogchen Tantras or follow any rules.

Perhaps their followers wrote the Dzogchen Tantras and the rules.

So for those who benefit from many rules, the Buddha Dharma has paths with many rules.

For those who benefit from fewer rules, the Buddha Dharma has paths with fewer rules.

And so you have the saying "View as wide as the sky and actions as small as a til seed."

Until you are a Mahasiddha and can perform miracles like flying in the sky, you must always respect karma and reincarnation and follow the 10 Goldens.

When trying to fly you should always try flying from the ground up - not from the roof down. :sage:

It is important to respect your own limits and the limits of others.

Then all goes well. :cheers:

If the management of the Dzogchen Community follows the words and advice of ChNN as to who can teach - all will go well.

If the Dzogchen Community invents new ideas as to who can teach, and invents new rules and teachings that are in opposition to the clear words of ChNN, It will not go well.
All the serious practitioners will go elsewhere. Perhaps many have already left, and many more are thinking of leaving.

Perhaps what will be left is a hierarchical social club preserving only a few of the Secondary Practices of the Transmission Lineage as taught by ChNN. Perhaps all of the Instructors teaching today are completely happy with this situation where they teach the same few things to the same few people over and over. Perhaps this is not sustainable.

This is really very very sad for those who stay in the Dzogchen Community as a hierarchical social club.

Or - we can collaborate and create a new Dzogchen Community where there are easy and regular Direct Introductions and Lung Reading authorizations and easy access to the entire DIgital Archive and to the entire Transcript Archive of the precious teachings of ChNN for all Members, with links to living lineage holders.

It is up to you!


Please read the wise words of ChNN in the two communications of 2016 about who can teach, and about what his children are allowed to teach.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 79#p598479

ob

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Last edited by oldbob on Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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