Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:53 pm

What I really want to know is whether or not they are practicing Yantra naked in the woods at night on full moons, Beltane, Samhain, etc.
I do that sometimes. And top it off with some Sam Adams Octoberfest.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Dear all and All,

:namaste:

I apologize for my long marzipan writings which are more than a little wordy. If this is an issue, please read a little at a time and come back to the marzipan when you have the time and opportunity.

Perhaps sometimes humor is simply inappropriate, like telling jokes at a funeral while everybody else is weeping, or just feeling sad while witnessing the decline of the Dzogchen Community.

So what to do? Maybe DW is not the place to attempt a responsible discussion of the issues facing the IDC.

In the fullness of time, perhaps all political positions in the IDC are subject to common sense - what works and what does not work. In terms of the Buddha Dharma this means what “turns the wheel” and what does not: what advances spiritual progress and what does not. In the short run, success may be measured by looking at the changing numbers of Members or the number of attendees at programs, but for the Buddha Dharma, the real measure of success is what has turned the wheel (helped the spiritual progress) of the most people.

And so - for me, so far in my 75 years, Dzogchen is the peak of common sense, and so I do my best to maintain awareness 24/7 integrating (in a non-dual way) with whatever arises or doesn't arise. This is our job – in a non-dual way as Dzogchen practitioners. All of the rituals, and writings contained in the Secondary Practices exist only to further this purpose. All the physical structures of Gars and Lings, also only exist for this purpose.

So, with this aim in mind as the key to Dzogchen practice, please attend to these defining words of wisdom from ChNN as to who can teach in the Dzogchen Community.

It is complicated but not impossible, by examining the words of ChNN, to figure out what is going on. Perhaps it is just a confusion of the multiple meaning of words. Perhaps, sometimes the words “Yeshe”, “Direct Introduction”, and “Dzogchen” have several meanings, narratives and usages, when used in different contexts by people of different understandings. Perhaps each is correct within their own dimension.

While understanding this, the key political take-a-way in the context of what is happening today in the Dzogchen Community, is that perhaps new definitions, usages and narratives (adding new-age interpretations) for these words allows a new political teaching structure to arise that has very little to do with the former teaching structures, or with the clear guidance of ChNN as to who can teach, and what can be taught, within the IDC.

So today, we have famous “Instructors” praising this new use of words and the new social teaching hierarchy that results within the Dzogchen Community as to who can teach what, under the brand of the Dzogchen Community. What is the motivation of these Instructors and how do they personally benefit by endorsing a perhaps politically motivated new use of these words?

It is also very interesting to note that in both of the letters of 2016, the IG (and the senior Instructors) are not given any role in deciding who can teach. This is proper as the IG are administrators, not Dzogchen Masters. Also, the senior Instructors were never recognized as "Enlightened Students"

From this it follows that any findings of the IG, or recommendations of the senior students, as to who can teach what within the IDC, are not binding on the Gakyils or Members.

In May 2016, ChNN sent out a letter to the Community about who can teach. That letter has been referenced by the IG to form guidelines as to who can be allowed to teach and on what subjects within the IDC of today.

First, let's look at what that first letter of ChNN actually said. (Highlights are added)

If one looks carefully at the meaning of these words of ChNN and applies them to what is actually happening within the IDC today, one can clearly see and understand the political changes happening -as we speak- within the IDC - one can clearly see if what is happening within the IDC is consistent or not consistent with the clear advice of ChNN.

Common sense, and the fullness of time, will show what political teaching structures best “turn the wheel” for newcomers.

Perhaps the real question is, "Who in the Dzogchen Community is in non-dual contemplation 24/7, how can this be determined, and how can this determination be applied to the question of who can lead and teach within the Dzogchen Community?


Here are the words of RInpoche from May 2016.
_________________________________________________________________________

"Dear Global Dzogchen Community.

I would like to make a clarification on the recent letter I wrote especially about courses in the Dzogchen Community for practitioners with transmission. As I have already said, we all have to be sure that people who will teach have a concrete base and understanding, this is important for everyone now and for the future. For this reason, it is my responsibility, as the Teacher and main holder of the transmission and lineage, to be sure I have trust in the people I authorize.

I have this deep trust in my Son and my Daughter. Any teaching they received the transmission and instruction for, I have full confidence for them to teach. If they decide they want to teach. But they should be free, and nobody should try to force them to teach.

Kenpo Yeshe Wangpo I have already authorized to teach several different practices.

Nina Robinson I have authorized to teach Mandarava.

Naljorma Tsultrim Allione and Costantino Albini I have authorized to teach my teaching of Chod.

Elio Guarisco and Fabio Andrico I have authorized to teach the Tsalungs of Mandarava.

Michael Katz I have authorized to teach my teachings dream Yoga.

All the SMS teachers are not automatically authorized to teach many practices. in order to teach a specific practice, they should first have that concrete knowledge, experience, capacity, and qualification.

Practitioners who are already leading some practices with practitioners who received the transmission should understand they are not authorized, teachers. All practitioners and Gakyils should understand this.

To be considered teachers they should first be directly and officially authorized by the Teacher.

Dzamling Gar 13 05 2016

ChNN.
____________________________________________

Let’s look at the issues one by one. “--- we all have to be sure that people who will teach have a concrete base and understanding,---” This is the key point as to who can teach. He also mentioned this clearly in his meeting with the SMS teachers in 2016. This sums up as, "before you can teach something, you have to have accomplished the practice". I think that everyone agrees on this as common sense.

“---it is my responsibility, as the Teacher and main holder of the transmission and lineage, to be sure I have trust in the people I authorize.” This again is obviously common sense, but it is notable that he describes himself as the, “--- main holder of the transmission and lineage,” these words recognize that ChNNR authenticates that there are other holders of the transmission and lineage. In Tibet, it is generally recognized that anyone having received a teaching is a lineage holder of that teaching.

Then, “I have this deep trust in my Son and my Daughter. Any teaching they received the transmission and instructions for, I have full confidence for them to teach.” Again, this is easily understandable, but the important point here is that even though he has deep trust in his son and daughter, he is only authorizing them to teach, “Any teaching they received the transmission and instructions for, ---”

No one knows what they received instructions for except themselves. This remains to be discovered - if they are agreeable. Following this, he is listing seven individuals who are linked to permission to teach specific practices. Here the key point is not whom he lists, but whom he does not list! Many well-known SMS teachers, who have given many teachings are NOT/ NOT on this list. Many other excellent, 40-year practitioners, from Merigar, are not on this list. No one in these letters is authorized to teach Yantra Yoga, or Vajra Dance.

So, it is very interesting when you consider where most time is spent in courses of instruction in the IDC.

Then, “All the SMS teachers are not automatically authorized to teach many practices,---”

This is the really KEY point!!! Again, you would think that this is very clear, except that most of the SMS teachers, teaching today, advertise themselves as an “Authorized SMS teacher” when they are teaching other teachings than SMS and this is surprising because this is clearly and specifically outlawed and forbidden in this letter of Rinpoche’s. What this means is that people who are not genuine represent themselves as something they are not in order to gain stature, market share, and other benefits. While this is understandable, it is hardly a flattering reflection on the character of those who use this false claim device, and by extension, it is a shameful reflection on the IDC, who should be enforcing this clearly stated, and widely circulated guidance from Rinpoche.

Then, “Practitioners who are already leading some practices with practitioners who received the transmission should understand they are not authorized teachers. All practitioners and Gakyils should understand this.” Again, this would appear to be straight forward, and easily understood, but this needs to be looked at more closely.

ChNNR is not saying that these unauthorized teachers should be stopped or prevented, but only that practitioners and Gakyils should understand that they are unauthorized. However, what this means in practice is that “friends of the Gakyil” are allowed to teach whatever they want to and to bill themselves as “Authorized Teacher.” The use of this phrase is unscrupulous. Allowing the use of the phrase “Authorized Teacher, or “Authorized SMS Instructor” or even “Authorized” in advertising for a course, gives a false impression. The impression to those who see this false advertising is that they will be taking a course of teachings from someone who is authorized by Rinpoche, and by extension the IG and the Gakyil. This is false advertising and should be regulated by the IG and the Gakyils as per Rinpoche’s explicit instructions in this letter, “All practitioners and Gakyils should understand this.”

Rinpoche concludes this letter with the thought, “To be considered teachers they should first be directly and officially authorized by the Teacher.” Again, this would appear at first glance to be straight forward and easily understood. But in practice, perhaps many want-to-be teachers bill themselves as “Instructors” and so seek to agree with this letter. But in keeping with the meaning of Rinpoche’s words in this letter, this use of the word “instructor’ is still a false representation. Also, this last sentence does not mention what happens when there is no teacher to go to for authorization. It is clear by common sense, that the specific authorizations in this letter do not stay in effect forever. What happens when the specifically named individuals die?

Obviously, the transmission has to go on somehow - as the Transmission Lineage will also have to have a way of survival if "Enlightened Students" give transmission.


A durable way must be found to allow regular and easy Direct introductions and Lung Authorizations that are not dependent on one individual.

Rinpoche answers this question twice in this letter of 2016 when he uses the phrases, “we all have to be sure that people who will teach have a concrete base and understanding---,” and,” in order to teach a specific practice they should first have that concrete knowledge, experience, capacity, and qualification.”

It would appear that in situations where there is no Teacher to go to, that the IG could authorize a “College of Spiritual Advisors", or "College of Enlightened Students" to serve in place of the Teacher when someone’s capacity to Teach needs to be authorized. This would help prevent “mushrooms” from using the name of ChNNR and the IDC when they are offering courses.

One other possibility would be to allow individuals to “self-certify” that they had accomplished a specific secondary practice. The proof of the pudding would be the street reputation of the self-certifying Teachers. Those who could really teach Dzogchen would be successful and build a following, and those who could not teach Dzogchen would not have followers.

It is of note that nowhere in this letter does ChNN mention Direct Introduction, and who can and cannot give this. The implication is that DI is like any other practice and those who give it, “should first have that concrete knowledge, experience, capacity, and qualification.”

In Nov. 2016 there was also a communication to everyone in a meeting with the SMS Instructors.

_____________________________________________________________________________
---
“For example, some people say, “Oh, we need to invite Santi Maha Sangha teachers to give Dzogchen teachings of the Dzogchen Semde, or Longde,” or something like this. This is not good, because Dzogchen Semde and Longde are not in the Base. In the Base there is all, from the refuge till the indication of tawa, gompa and chöpa, it explains how these three are in Hinayana, Mahayana, and then in Vajrayana, in Anuyoga, and Dzogchen, etc.

So what we learned in the base of the Santi Maha Sangha, this is what we can teach and inform. If you have some more capacity to go deeper that is not problem, it’s very good, but if you jump on something outside of that and you do some teachings that we have in our Dzogchen Community – in Shang Shung Editions we have so many secondary practices – then becoming teacher of the Santi Maha Sangha is becoming teacher of everything; I think this is not good, because we should go very precise on what is limited in the Base of the Santi Maha Sangha.

Then if someone says, “Oh, these Santi Maha Sangha teachers could explain and do something just like the practice of the Mandarava, practice of something else”, (we have many secondary practices,)in this case I am not saying you couldn’t do that, you can do, but you should check first of all by yourselves, if you really know it or not. If you know everything very precise, then I say OK, then there is the possibility, and you can do something; no need to always ask me, something like a permission, etc., and I say OK to this, because otherwise, it seems, “Oh I am teacher of Chöd, I am teacher of the Long Life Practice,” etc., it becomes strange. We have many things in Dzogchen Community, many practices. So, Santi Maha Sangha teachers should check a little by themselves; if they really have knowledge etc., they can communicate. People are asking me, “I have this knowledge, can I do? Is it OK?” Then I say OK. Then you don't need to say, “I received a permission, or not permission”. But itis better you ask me, for I am the teacher of you. So, if we go that way, there will be no problems.

Because otherwise sometimes it becomes complicated.”

---

________________________________________________

So, observing the current complications of the Dzogchen Community - perhaps now it is necessary to observe ourselves, and our individual responsibility and capacity to preserve the Transmission Lineage, and collaborate within the wider Dzogchen Community.

If the Gars and Lings do not step up and work with the IG of the IDC to promote a full responsible discussion of the issues, where is this going?

Perhaps we should all be sad if the Dzogchen Community keeps losing Members because only a few instructors are allowed to teach a few of the Secondary Practices to a few oldtimers and fewer and fewer newcomers.

No one wants to be part of a hierarchy that restricts full access to the Teachings to the rich, connected, or functionaries within the IDC.

The Buddha Dharma is for everybody and the Dzogchen Transmission Lineage of ChNN should be freely and fully available to anyone who seeks it.

Open and easy access to an indexed and easily accessed Digital Archive and Transcript Archive is a key point to ensure equal access to the Teachings.

The Dzogchen Transmission Lineage of ChNN exists within the context of Mahayana Buddhism.

We must remember that the purpose of Mahayana Dharma and the IDC is to help all sentient beings find Enlightenment. This is the goal that we need to keep our eye on. This is the goal that we can all agree on. Then politically, how to get there can be found by discussion, dialog, and an examination of the issues, informed by the wish of Enlightenment for all. Then a consensus is possible under the guidance of a professional conciliator leading Zoom conferences where the dimension of all Members are heard and respected.

Perhaps we need an endowed Dzogchen University where within whose structures, regular and easy Direct Introduction and Lung Reading Authorizations are supported from many "Enlightened Students."

Again, all of this needs to be discussed until a consensus is formed.


I pray (endlessly) it will end well.

Most sincerely, oldbob - Bob Kragen

:heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

oldbob wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:50 pm Perhaps sometimes humor is simply inappropriate…
If your practice does not allow to endure a joke, there are other religions to which you may be better suited
Again, all of this needs to be discussed until a consensus is formed.
No, that is exactly what we do not need, because it would be a waste of time. All the arguments and potential solutions have been rehearsed above in the thread many times. The DC will not reach a consensus, all its members will die off first.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Well Oldbob, I agree about the archive for the most part, but I don’t expect it to change.

As I mentioned earlier, I figure that if whoever makes the call was really concerned with using the archive to preserve ChNNs teachings they would at least create a more egalitarian access structure (even if paid) that still maintained the need for transmission, and for those teaching that did not, share them.

Rinpoche had such a presence- even through video- that I think it would be a shame for recordings to be available to an ever-diminishing group, but we will see what the future brings, and that appears to be policy for now.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Kilaya. »

I'm looking for a recording of ChNN reciting the Vajrakilaya mantras he transmitted and I received several years ago. If any of you can help, please PM me. Thank you.
Look at those charlatans, madly engaged
in fervent argument.
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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:51 am
No, that is exactly what we do not need, because it would be a waste of time. All the arguments and potential solutions have been rehearsed above in the thread many times. The DC will not reach a consensus, all its members will die off first.
Even if we did, all of this material is not actually owned by the Dzogchen Community proper. It is all owned by family, virtually all of it.

So, Bob's desiderata is all based on a single misconception, that is, a misconception about who owns and is heir to ChNN's intellectual property.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:31 am Well Oldbob, I agree about the archive for the most part, but I don’t expect it to change.
To reiterate, Bob's desiderata is all based on a single misconception, that is, a misconception about who owns and is heir to ChNN's intellectual property.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Dear all and All,

I am sending this again with a few changes.

I apologize for my long marzipan writings which are more than a little wordy. If this is an issue, please read a little at a time and come back to the marzipan when you have the time and opportunity.

Perhaps we are at a pivotal time of change within the IDC and so it is useful to look at the issues, NOW, before new rules and organizational structures that have quietly been put into place during the 3 years of mourning are carved in stone.

Relaxing is always very good. For those who would benefit - and if you would like to, “Take a deep breath”, and repeat until you are relaxed.

:heart:

OK, now that we are relaxed let’s look at these timely issues.

Time is passing – Time matters. In 100 years there will be no one alive who received Direct Transmission from ChNN. With every passing year, there will be fewer and fewer. So the ideas of “observe yourself, work with circumstances, and do your best”, really apply to the here and now of the current circumstances of preserving the Transmission Lineage of ChNN, while the direct lineage holders are still alive.

In the fullness of time, perhaps all political positions in the IDC are subject to common sense - what works and what does not work.

In terms of the Buddha Dharma, this means what “turns the wheel” and what does not: what advances spiritual progress and what does not. In the short run, success may be measured by looking at the changing numbers of Members or the number of attendees at programs, but for the Buddha Dharma, the real measure of success is what has turned the wheel (helped the spiritual progress) of the most people.

And so - for me, so far in my 75 years, Dzogchen is the peak of common sense, and so I do my best to maintain awareness 24/7 integrating (in a non-dual way) with whatever arises or doesn't arise. This is our job – in a non-dual way as Dzogchen practitioners. All of the rituals and writings contained in the Secondary Practices exist only to further this purpose. All the physical structures of Gars and Lings, also only exist for this purpose.

So, with this aim in mind as the key to Dzogchen practice, and recalling the limitless Generosity of ChNN, please attend to these defining words of wisdom from ChNN as to who can teach in the Dzogchen Community.

It is complicated but not impossible, by examining the words of ChNN, to figure out what is actually going on, right now within the IDC.

Perhaps it is just a confusion of the multiple meaning of Dzogchen Dharma words. Perhaps, sometimes the words “Yeshe”, “Direct Introduction”, and “Dzogchen” have several meanings, narratives and usages when used in different contexts by people of different understandings. Perhaps each is correct within their own dimension.

While understanding this, the key political take-a-way in the context of what is happening today in the Dzogchen Community is that perhaps new definitions, usages, and narratives (adding new-age interpretations) for these Dzogchen Dharma words allows a new political teaching structure to arise that has very little to do with the former teaching structures, or with the clear guidance of ChNN as to who can teach, and what can be taught, within the IDC.

It is clear that this new teaching structure does NOT / NOT support the Transmission Lineage of ChNN or the preservation of the 108+ Secondary Practices as taught by ChNN.

So today, we have a few senior “Instructors” praising this new use of words, and the new social teaching hierarchy that results, within the Dzogchen Community as to who can teach what, under the brand of the Dzogchen Community. What is the motivation of these few Instructors and how do they personally benefit by endorsing a perhaps politically motivated new use of these words? Some of these “Instructors are in high positions in the IG and local Gakyils. These Instructors seem happy to teach 5 or 6 of the Secondary Practices to the same 20 or so old students – over and over again. The IG and ATIF apparently endorse this, creating rules that limit what can be taught or not taught within the IDC. The IG, ATIF, and the few Instructors still teaching, have NOT / NOT suggested any way to allow for the future granting of regular and easy Direct Introductions and Lung Reading Authorizations.

ChNN always provided regular and easy DI on the web. ChNN always provided regular and easy Lung Reading Authorizations on the web.

So, it is also very interesting to note that in the 2 ChNN communications of 2016, as to who can teach, both the IG and the senior Instructors are NOT/ NOT given any role in deciding who can teach.

This is proper as the IG are administrators, not Dzogchen Masters. Also, the senior Instructors were never recognized as "Enlightened Students," having at best, (only 3 Instructors) received permission to teach up to level 2 of the 10 levels of the SMS. Forty three of the Instructors were only authorized to teach the Base level of the SMS.

From this, it follows that any findings of the IG, or recommendations of Instructors, as to who can teach what, from within the IDC, are not binding on the Gakyils or Members.

In May 2016, ChNN sent out a letter to the Community about who can teach. That letter has been referenced by the IG to form guidelines as to who can be allowed to teach and on what subjects within the IDC of today.

First, let's look at what that first letter of ChNN actually said.

If one looks carefully at the meaning of these words of ChNN and applies them to what is actually happening within the IDC today, - one can clearly see if what is happening within the IDC, now, is consistent or not consistent with the clear advice of ChNN.

Here are the words of RInpoche from May 2016. (Highlights added)
_________________________________________________________________________

"Dear Global Dzogchen Community.

I would like to make a clarification on the recent letter I wrote especially about courses in the Dzogchen Community for practitioners with transmission. As I have already said, we all have to be sure that people who will teach have a concrete base and understanding, this is important for everyone now and for the future. For this reason, it is my responsibility, as the Teacher and main holder of the transmission and lineage, to be sure I have trust in the people I authorize.

I have this deep trust in my Son and my Daughter. Any teaching they received the transmission and instruction for, I have full confidence for them to teach. If they decide they want to teach. But they should be free, and nobody should try to force them to teach.

Kenpo Yeshe Wangpo I have already authorized to teach several different practices.

Nina Robinson I have authorized to teach Mandarava.

Naljorma Tsultrim Allione and Costantino Albini I have authorized to teach my teaching of Chod.

Elio Guarisco and Fabio Andrico I have authorized to teach the Tsalungs of Mandarava.

Michael Katz I have authorized to teach my teachings dream Yoga.

All the SMS teachers are not automatically authorized to teach many practices. in order to teach a specific practice, they should first have that concrete knowledge, experience, capacity, and qualification.

Practitioners who are already leading some practices with practitioners who received the transmission should understand they are not authorized, teachers. All practitioners and Gakyils should understand this.

To be considered teachers they should first be directly and officially authorized by the Teacher.

Dzamling Gar 13 05 2016

ChNN.
____________________________________________

Let’s look at the issues one by one. “--- we all have to be sure that people who will teach have a concrete base and understanding,---” This is the key point as to who can teach. He also mentioned this clearly in his meeting with the SMS teachers in 2016. This sums up as "before you can teach something, you have to have accomplished the practice". I think that everyone agrees on this as common sense.

“---it is my responsibility, as the Teacher and main holder of the transmission and lineage, to be sure I have trust in the people I authorize.” This again is obviously common sense, but it is notable that he describes himself as the, “--- main holder of the transmission and lineage,” these words recognize that ChNNR authenticates that there are also other holders of the transmission and lineage. In Tibet, it is generally recognized that anyone having received and accomplished a teaching is a lineage holder of that teaching.

Then, “I have this deep trust in my Son and my Daughter. Any teaching they received the transmission and instructions for, I have full confidence for them to teach.” Again, this is easily understandable, but the important point here is that even though he has deep trust in his son and daughter, ChNN is only authorizing them to teach, “Any teaching they received the transmission and instructions for, ---”

No one knows what they received instructions for except themselves. This remains to be discovered - if they are agreeable.

Following this, he is listing seven individuals who are linked to permission to teach specific practices. Here the key point is not whom he lists, but whom he does not list! Many well-known SMS teachers, who have given many teachings are NOT/ NOT on this list. Many other excellent, 40-year practitioners, from Merigar, are not on this list.

Also, No one in these letters is authorized to teach Yantra Yoga, Vajra Dance, or Khaita. Who can teach these is covered under the teaching guidelines of the cultural foundation, ATIF. It should be noted that ATIF has nothing to do with the Dzogchen Transmission Lineage of ChNN despite using the Ati word in their title.

Also, it is very interesting to observe where most time, money and effort is spent in courses of instruction in the IDC. Who authorized the Gakyils and Instructors to determine the spiritual content of the future of the IDC?)

Why is this? Is this because there is no interest from the Members in preserving the entire 108+ practices or is it because the instructors, who are encouraged to teach by the Gakyils, are only willing and able to teach what they themselves are wishing to preserve?

What is wrong with this picture? This is like a three-legged table.

Nowhere in the writings or recordings of ChNN is the IDC Gakyil, or are the senior SMS Instructors authorized to determine the content of the spiritual future of the IDC.

Understanding that this would be an issue in the future, ChNN addressed this in the communications of 2016.

Then, “All the SMS teachers are not automatically authorized to teach many practices,---”

This is the really KEY point!!! Again, you would think that this is very clear, except that most of the SMS teachers, teaching today, advertise themselves as an “Authorized SMS teacher” when they are teaching other teachings than SMS and this is surprising because this is clearly and specifically outlawed and forbidden in this letter of Rinpoche’s. What this means is that perhaps people who are not genuine, represent themselves as something they are not, in order to gain stature, market share, and other benefits. While this is understandable, it is hardly a flattering reflection on the character of those who use this false claim device, and by extension, it is a shameful reflection on the IDC, who should be enforcing this clearly stated, and widely circulated guidance from Rinpoche.

Then, “Practitioners who are already leading some practices with practitioners who received the transmission should understand they are not authorized teachers. All practitioners and Gakyils should understand this.” Again, this would appear to be straightforward, and easily understood, but this needs to be looked at more closely.

ChNNR is not saying that these unauthorized teachers should be stopped or prevented, but only that practitioners and Gakyils should understand that they are unauthorized. However, what this means in actuality is that SMS Instructors who are “friends of the Gakyil” are allowed to teach whatever they want to and to bill themselves as “Authorized Teacher.” The use of this phrase is unscrupulous. Allowing the use of the phrase “Authorized Teacher, or “Authorized SMS Instructor” or even “Authorized” in advertising for a course, gives a false impression. The impression to those who see this false advertising is that they will be taking a course of teachings from someone who is authorized by Rinpoche, - because this course has been authorized by the IG and the local Gakyil.

This is false advertising and should be regulated by the IG and the Gakyils as per Rinpoche’s explicit instructions in this letter, “All practitioners and Gakyils should understand this.”

Rinpoche concludes this letter with the thought, “To be considered teachers they should first be directly and officially authorized by the Teacher.” Again, this would appear at first glance to be straightforward and easily understood. But in practice, perhaps many want-to-be teachers bill themselves as “Instructors” and so seek to agree with this letter. But in keeping with the meaning of Rinpoche’s words in this letter, this use of the word “instructor’ is still a false representation.

Also, this last sentence does not mention what happens when there is no teacher to go to for authorization. It is clear by common sense, that the specific authorizations in this letter do not stay in effect forever. What happens when the specifically named individuals die?

Obviously, the transmission has to go on somehow - as the Transmission Lineage will also have to have a way of long-term survival if one "Enlightened Student" gives transmission.

A durable way must be found to allow regular and easy Direct introductions and Lung Authorizations that are not dependent on only one individual.

Rinpoche answers these questions twice in this letter of 2016 when he uses the phrases, “we all have to be sure that people who will teach have a concrete base and understanding---,” and,” in order to teach a specific practice they should first have that concrete knowledge, experience, capacity, and qualification.”

It would appear that in situations where there is no Teacher to go to, that the IG could authorize a “College of Spiritual Advisors", or "College of Enlightened Students" to serve in place of the Teacher when someone’s capacity to Teach needs to be authorized. This would help prevent “mushrooms” from using the name of ChNNR and the IDC when they are offering courses.

One other possibility would be to allow individuals to “self-certify” that they had accomplished a specific secondary practice. The proof of the pudding would be the street reputation of the self-certifying Teachers. Those who could really teach Dzogchen would be successful and build a following, and those who could not teach Dzogchen would not have followers. It is of note that nowhere in this letter does ChNN mention Direct Introduction, and who can and can not give this. The implication is that DI is like any other practice and those who give it, “should first have that concrete knowledge, experience, capacity, and qualification.”

In Nov. 2016 there was also a communication to everyone in a meeting with the SMS Instructors.

_____________________________________________________________________________
---
“For example, some people say, “Oh, we need to invite Santi Maha Sangha teachers to give Dzogchen teachings of the Dzogchen Semde, or Longde,” or something like this. This is not good, because Dzogchen Semde and Longde are not in the Base. In the Base there is all, from the refuge till the indication of tawa, gompa and chöpa, it explains how these three are in Hinayana, Mahayana, and then in Vajrayana, in Anuyoga, and Dzogchen, etc.

So what we learned in the base of the Santi Maha Sangha, this is what we can teach and inform. If you have some more capacity to go deeper that is not problem, it’s very good, but if you jump on something outside of that and you do some teachings that we have in our Dzogchen Community – in Shang Shung Editions we have so many secondary practices –then becoming teacher of the Santi Maha Sangha is becoming teacher of everything; I think this is not good, because we should go very precise on what is limited in the Base of the Santi Maha Sangha.

Then if someone says, “Oh, these Santi Maha Sangha teachers could explain and do something just like the practice of the Mandarava, practice of something else”, (we have many secondary practices,) in this case I am not saying you couldn’t do that, you can do, but you should check first of all by yourselves, if you really know it or not. If you know everything very precise, then I say OK, then there is the possibility, and you can do something; no need to always ask me, something like a permission, etc., and I say OK to this, because otherwise, it seems, “Oh I am teacher of Chöd, I am teacher of the Long Life Practice,” etc., it becomes strange. We have many things in Dzogchen Community, many practices. So, Santi Maha Sangha teachers should check a little by themselves; if they really have knowledge, etc., they can communicate. People are asking me, “I have this knowledge, can I do? Is it OK?” Then I say OK. Then you don't need to say, “I received a permission, or not permission”. But itis better you ask me, for I am the teacher of you. So, if we go that way, there will be no problems.

Because otherwise sometimes it becomes complicated.”

---

________________________________________________

So, observing the current complications, and failures of the Dzogchen Community to create a sustainable path forward, - perhaps now it is necessary to observe ourselves, and our individual responsibility and capacity to preserve the Transmission Lineage, and collaborate within the wider Dzogchen Community.

If the Gars, Lings, and responsible individuals, do not step up and work with the IG of the IDC to promote a fully responsible discussion and resolution of the issues, where is this going?

Perhaps we should all be sad if the Dzogchen Community keeps losing Members because only a few instructors are allowed or willing to teach a few of the Secondary Practices to a very few regular old-timers and fewer and fewer newcomers.

No one wants to be part of a top-down hierarchy that restricts full access to the Teachings to the wealthy, to those connected to the IG, or to those who have direct access to the computers holding the Digital Archive and the Transcript Archive.

The Buddha Dharma is free for everybody. The Dzogchen Transmission Lineage of ChNN should be freely and fully available to anyone who seeks it, according to the "Generosity" of ChNN, with empowerment and Lung Reading Authority for all those who sincerely seek it.

Open and easy access to an indexed and easily accessed Digital Archives and Transcript Archives holding the 108+ secondary Practices of ChNN is the birth-right of all who wish to follow the Transmission Lineage of ChNN. This is doable at a low-cost today - right now.

Also, we need to recall that the Dzogchen Transmission Lineage of ChNN exists within the context of Mahayana Buddhism.

We must remember that the purpose of Mahayana Dharma, and therefore the IDC, is to help all sentient beings find Enlightenment. This is the goal that we need to keep our eye on. This is the goal that we can all agree on. Then politically, how to get there can be found by discussion, dialog, and an examination of the issues, informed by the wish of Enlightenment for all.

It would be possible to achieve a consensus under the guidance of a professional conciliator leading Zoom conferences where the views of all Members are heard and respected.

This guided consensus process was recently successfully used by the New York Ling to achieve the peaceful solution of a thorny and contentious issue without losing, or offending, any of the Members. it took several months of time and involved the employment of a professional Dzogchen practitioner conciliator, but the process worked and it resolved many divergent views in a good and sustainable way.

Also, perhaps we need to think about having an endowed residential and online Dzogchen University where within whose structures, regular and easy Direct Introduction and Lung Reading Authorizations are supported. This would be a way to allow regularly scheduled residential and online study and practice of all 108+ secondary Practices.

Common sense, and the fullness of time, will show what teaching structures and content best “turn the wheel” for newcomers to Dzogchen.

Perhaps the ultimate question is, "Who in the Dzogchen Community is most in non-dual contemplation 24/7, how can this be determined, and how can this determination be applied to the question of who can lead and teach within the Dzogchen Community?

If the Gars, Lings, and responsible individuals with capacity do not step up to intervene, I fear that the preservation of the Transmission Lineage and the preservation of the 108+ Secondary Practices will be lost. Maybe we can collaborate together to change things for the better.

Again, all of this could be discussed in Zoom conferences until a consensus is formed.

Let’s begin by putting the issues on the table.


Perhaps otherwise all serious practitioners will move on to other living Teachers and Transmission Lineages, and only Team Leaders, Administrators, and other Instructors will attend the courses.

So - dear reader - it is on the table - now it is up to you. Please collaborate as you are able.

I pray (endlessly) it will end well.

May these words be of benefit to the Enlightenment of everybody.

Most sincerely, oldbob - Bob Kragen


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Kurp
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:26 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:51 am
No, that is exactly what we do not need, because it would be a waste of time. All the arguments and potential solutions have been rehearsed above in the thread many times. The DC will not reach a consensus, all its members will die off first.
Even if we did, all of this material is not actually owned by the Dzogchen Community proper. It is all owned by family, virtually all of it.

So, Bob's desiderata is all based on a single misconception, that is, a misconception about who owns and is heir to ChNN's intellectual property.
It would not be straightforward for the family to defend that title legally, given the nature of the relationship between ChNNr and SSP while he lived. But it would definitely not be consistent with his intent to go down that route.
Hansei
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Maybe the family has not received a serious proposition from the community to create the online archive. Maybe it hasn't even been discussed.
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Hansei wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:47 pm Maybe the family has not received a serious proposition from the community to create the online archive. Maybe it hasn't even been discussed.
The archive is being done but it takes time. The icd expressed this several times. But some forum users dont agree with it being for members.
I do agree
Hansei
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Hansei »

Tata1 wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:55 pm
Hansei wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:47 pm Maybe the family has not received a serious proposition from the community to create the online archive. Maybe it hasn't even been discussed.
The archive is being done but it takes time. The icd expressed this several times. But some forum users dont agree with it being for members.
I do agree
Glad to know that.

About being for members, it seems to make sense. On the one hand because of restricted teachings, which would likely be most of them, and on the other hand because the infrastructure for the online archive will cost money. Hosting and streaming thousands of GBs of video won't be very cheap.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Hansei wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:03 pmAbout being for members, it seems to make sense. On the one hand because of restricted teachings, which would likely be most of them, and on the other hand because the infrastructure for the online archive will cost money. Hosting and streaming thousands of GBs of video won't be very cheap.
It also guarantees that in about sixty years not a whiff will remain of these records. Or, more accurately, all the records will be there, but there will be absolutely no one to watch any of them, ever.

Especially in the West, Tibetan Buddhism is in crisis (how many young people practising TB are there in your local sanghas? How many of them stay for more than a few months or a couple of years?). The crisis will not go away, it will only intensify, given the direction in which our societies are going. Perhaps it would be good to do what Bon teachers or Garchen Rinpoche are already doing, and share what we have, as long as anybody still cares? ChNN was generosity incarnate...
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:34 pm
Hansei wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:03 pmAbout being for members, it seems to make sense. On the one hand because of restricted teachings, which would likely be most of them, and on the other hand because the infrastructure for the online archive will cost money. Hosting and streaming thousands of GBs of video won't be very cheap.
It also guarantees that in about sixty years not a whiff will remain of these records. Or, more accurately, all the records will be there, but there will be absolutely no one to watch any of them, ever.

Especially in the West, Tibetan Buddhism is in crisis (how many young people practising TB are there in your local sanghas? How many of them stay for more than a few months or a couple of years?). The crisis will not go away, it will only intensify, given the direction in which our societies are going. Perhaps it would be good to do what Bon teachers or Garchen Rinpoche are already doing, and share what we have, as long as anybody still cares? ChNN was generosity incarnate...
It was ChNN who said replays are for people with transmission.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Tata1 wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:43 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:34 pm
Hansei wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:03 pmAbout being for members, it seems to make sense. On the one hand because of restricted teachings, which would likely be most of them, and on the other hand because the infrastructure for the online archive will cost money. Hosting and streaming thousands of GBs of video won't be very cheap.
It also guarantees that in about sixty years not a whiff will remain of these records. Or, more accurately, all the records will be there, but there will be absolutely no one to watch any of them, ever.

Especially in the West, Tibetan Buddhism is in crisis (how many young people practising TB are there in your local sanghas? How many of them stay for more than a few months or a couple of years?). The crisis will not go away, it will only intensify, given the direction in which our societies are going. Perhaps it would be good to do what Bon teachers or Garchen Rinpoche are already doing, and share what we have, as long as anybody still cares? ChNN was generosity incarnate...
It was ChNN who said replays are for people with transmission.
Different stories here. Anyway, if he said so, he did so in the light of his conviction that the DC had a future, that it would be continued as before, with some people being there resposible for the wangs/DI, etc.; numerous recordings/transcripts evince that he did have such a vision. I daresay that it was the context for many of the things he said and did. This context is not here anymore.

As Hansei noted, it is expensive to build/keep such a library. If it is to be shared with some 4k people today, one third of that number in a few years, a mere few hundred in a decade, and almost no one twenty years from now -- seriously, what is the point?
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Kurp »

I dunno. Maybe just keep the teachings alive as best as everyone can and let them be available to whomever needs them. If there is no successor to give transmission within the lineage, then maybe we can hope that Rinpoche will just pop into peoples’ dreams and give it to them there. Why not? I’ve read accounts of people dreaming of their teaching before meeting them. Hasn’t happened to me, but seems legit. That way, the teachings are still available online when a person needs them.

As for arguments of “how can we trust a person really had that experience?” I dunno. Dude. Just try to keep things alive and do your best. Worry about that crap later.

Go beyond your limitations and think outside of the box. It’s Rinpoche after all, people. He’s always with us. He’s like all… dharmakaya and stuff. :P
Last edited by Kurp on Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Giovanni
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Giovanni »

Bob…it’s gone. Wave goodbye. You are 75 years old. Don’t spend the time you have left trying to spilt milk back into the bottle.
There is a legacy of practice.
There are living teachers.
Let go.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

oldbob wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:46 pm Dear all and All,

This is long to read but there is much to put on the table - that is timely. So please do your best!!!

It should be noted that apparently, the intellectual property rules both in Europe and in the US have only a 35-year life. That means that perhaps the material from before September 1986, is now in the public domain, and that each year, perhaps more and more material will be in the public domain. As of now, this includes 7 years of Teaching including Tregchod and Togyal.
International copyright law specifies a period of 75 years from the death of the author. This includes recordings, videos, etc. You are confusing patents with copyright.
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