Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Well, I'm forced to at least lock this for now, at this point. We can revisit opening it after people have calmed down.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Reopening the thread due to news of transmission, let's keep it clean if we want it to remain open.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Update from Merigar:
Dear friends,
We are very happy to announce that on September 18th and 19th Yeshi Silvano Namkhai will give direct Transmission at Merigar.
This event is exclusively dedicated to people interested in Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s Teachings, who have not received Transmission from Him. The list of participants is already full.
On September 16th and 17th all the activities in Merigar will be suspended to allow the organization of the spaces.
On the days of September 18th and 19th we ask you to please abstain from coming to Merigar, in order to guarantee privacy during the course of the event.
Thank you.
Merigar Gakyil
I didn't hear anything about registration for this, I'm guessing they just re-contacted those who had registered for the event with Yeshi last year.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:55 pm Update from Merigar:
Dear friends,
We are very happy to announce that on September 18th and 19th Yeshi Silvano Namkhai will give direct Transmission at Merigar.
This event is exclusively dedicated to people interested in Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s Teachings, who have not received Transmission from Him. The list of participants is already full.
On September 16th and 17th all the activities in Merigar will be suspended to allow the organization of the spaces.
On the days of September 18th and 19th we ask you to please abstain from coming to Merigar, in order to guarantee privacy during the course of the event.
Thank you.
Merigar Gakyil
I didn't hear anything about registration for this, I'm guessing they just re-contacted those who had registered for the event with Yeshi last year.
And probably capacity is reduced due to covid
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:49 pm Reopening the thread due to news of transmission, let's keep it clean if we want it to remain open.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

so, Yeshi, who is not believing in reincarnation, karma, who doesnt want to have anything to do with DC and all tibetan stuff, is now going to give transmission of dzogchen teachings and everybody is ok with that, right?

just imagine, that you know some guy, who is not buddhist, dont believe in karma, and so on, even reject his sangha and then after one year out of the blue he is going to give teachings and transmissions. would you take it? would you create a samaya with him?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:45 am so, Yeshi, who is not believing in reincarnation, karma, who doesnt want to have anything to do with DC and all tibetan stuff, is now going to give transmission of dzogchen teachings and everybody is ok with that, right?

just imagine, that you know some guy, who is not buddhist, dont believe in karma, and so on, even reject his sangha and then after one year out of the blue he is going to give teachings and transmissions. would you take it? would you create a samaya with him?
Without answering your question - I suspect we are 2-3 messages in this discussion away from some difficult discussions about the intent of ChNNr. There’s more than enough material on this site alone to allow people to make their own decision on Yeshi. I think we should avoid discussing this topic.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Hansei »

PeterC wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:57 amWithout answering your question - I suspect we are 2-3 messages in this discussion away from some difficult discussions about the intent of ChNNr. There’s more than enough material on this site alone to allow people to make their own decision on Yeshi. I think we should avoid discussing this topic.
Yes, please. Let's not fall into that and have this topic closed again.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

PeterC wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:57 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:45 am so, Yeshi, who is not believing in reincarnation, karma, who doesnt want to have anything to do with DC and all tibetan stuff, is now going to give transmission of dzogchen teachings and everybody is ok with that, right?

just imagine, that you know some guy, who is not buddhist, dont believe in karma, and so on, even reject his sangha and then after one year out of the blue he is going to give teachings and transmissions. would you take it? would you create a samaya with him?
Without answering your question - I suspect we are 2-3 messages in this discussion away from some difficult discussions about the intent of ChNNr. There’s more than enough material on this site alone to allow people to make their own decision on Yeshi. I think we should avoid discussing this topic.
As long as people behave I don't know why it shouldn't be discussed. The Rigpa problems where discussed with bare knuckles and I can't remember you asking to close that thread. After all if Yeshi said these things it is pretty weird, no?

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Josef »

Hansei wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:39 pm
PeterC wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:57 amWithout answering your question - I suspect we are 2-3 messages in this discussion away from some difficult discussions about the intent of ChNNr. There’s more than enough material on this site alone to allow people to make their own decision on Yeshi. I think we should avoid discussing this topic.
Yes, please. Let's not fall into that and have this topic closed again.
As an originator of this thread I would like to see it remain closed actually.
This discussion isn't necessary any longer. Rinpoche gave us every opportunity to follow his instructions. Yeshi is going to do what he wants, and it isnt really our business at this point.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Josef wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:06 pm
Hansei wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:39 pm
PeterC wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:57 amWithout answering your question - I suspect we are 2-3 messages in this discussion away from some difficult discussions about the intent of ChNNr. There’s more than enough material on this site alone to allow people to make their own decision on Yeshi. I think we should avoid discussing this topic.
Yes, please. Let's not fall into that and have this topic closed again.
As an originator of this thread I would like to see it remain closed actually.
This discussion isn't necessary any longer. Rinpoche gave us every opportunity to follow his instructions. Yeshi is going to do what he wants, and it isnt really our business at this point.
This thread was opened by Malcolm. A lot of stuff that was "none of our business" been discussed in this forum over the years.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

heart wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:02 pm
PeterC wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:57 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:45 am so, Yeshi, who is not believing in reincarnation, karma, who doesnt want to have anything to do with DC and all tibetan stuff, is now going to give transmission of dzogchen teachings and everybody is ok with that, right?

just imagine, that you know some guy, who is not buddhist, dont believe in karma, and so on, even reject his sangha and then after one year out of the blue he is going to give teachings and transmissions. would you take it? would you create a samaya with him?
Without answering your question - I suspect we are 2-3 messages in this discussion away from some difficult discussions about the intent of ChNNr. There’s more than enough material on this site alone to allow people to make their own decision on Yeshi. I think we should avoid discussing this topic.
As long as people behave I don't know why it shouldn't be discussed. The Rigpa problems where discussed with bare knuckles and I can't remember you asking to close that thread. After all if Yeshi said these things it is pretty weird, no?

/magnus
Perhaps I’m being selfish, as I don’t have samaya with anyone involved in Rigpa. Most in this thread have samaya with ChNNr, and that can make discussions of Yeshi complicated.

But, you are right: we shouldn’t be unwilling to discuss information in the public domain. In any case I think I said what I think about the question a long time ago in this thread.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Josef »

heart wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:37 pm
Josef wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:06 pm
Hansei wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:39 pm

Yes, please. Let's not fall into that and have this topic closed again.
As an originator of this thread I would like to see it remain closed actually.
This discussion isn't necessary any longer. Rinpoche gave us every opportunity to follow his instructions. Yeshi is going to do what he wants, and it isnt really our business at this point.
This thread was opened by Malcolm. A lot of stuff that was "none of our business" been discussed in this forum over the years.

/magnus
This thread was opened based upon a discussion between Malcolm and myself to be precise. "Nangwa" in the original post is me.
Your second statement is certainly true.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Yes, I agree that DC is a painful subject and personally I feel I got to aggravated before and said things I shouldn't. I don't feel I have so much more to say, but I feel people should be allowed to ask or discuss if it is needed.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Josef wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:46 pm
heart wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:37 pm
Josef wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:06 pm

As an originator of this thread I would like to see it remain closed actually.
This discussion isn't necessary any longer. Rinpoche gave us every opportunity to follow his instructions. Yeshi is going to do what he wants, and it isnt really our business at this point.
This thread was opened by Malcolm. A lot of stuff that was "none of our business" been discussed in this forum over the years.

/magnus
This thread was opened based upon a discussion between Malcolm and myself to be precise. "Nangwa" in the original post is me.
Your second statement is certainly true.
Right, Nangwa. Sorry about that.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:45 am so, Yeshi, who is not believing in reincarnation, karma, who doesnt want to have anything to do with DC and all tibetan stuff, is now going to give transmission of dzogchen teachings and everybody is ok with that, right?

just imagine, that you know some guy, who is not buddhist, dont believe in karma, and so on, even reject his sangha and then after one year out of the blue he is going to give teachings and transmissions. would you take it? would you create a samaya with him?
Point is if yeshe gives trasmission some sangha people will complain. If he doesnt they will also complain. As always have been in DC.

All i know is rinpoche explicitly said yeshe could teach and that he should be left to do whatever he wants.
I plan to follow what Rinpoche said.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

:namaste: :meditate:

It is my heartfelt prayer that we wre to be informed by Ati Guru yoga as we are writing.

:heart:

Please attend and collaborate in that spirit.

Dear all and All.,

In May 2016, ChNN sent out a letter to the Community about who can teach. That letter has been referenced by the IG to form guidelines as to who can be allowed to teach and on what subjects within the IDC of today.
First, let’s look at what that letter actually said. (Highlights are added.)
_________________________________________________________________________
"Dear Global Dzogchen Community.

I would like to make a clarification on the recent letter I wrote especially about courses in the Dzogchen Community for practitioners with transmission. As I have already said, we all have to be sure that people who will teach have a concrete base and understanding, this is important for everyone now and for the future. For this reason, it is my responsibility, as the Teacher and main holder of the transmission and lineage, to be sure I have trust in the people I authorize.

I have this deep trust in my Son and my Daughter. Any teaching they received the transmission and instructions for, I have full confidence for them to teach. If they decide they want to teach. But they should be free and nobody should try to force them to teach.

Kenpo Yeshe Wangpo I have already authorized to teach several different practices.

Nina Robinson I have authorized to teach Mandarava.

Naljorma Tsultrim Allione and Costantino Albini I have authorized to teach my teaching of Chod.

Elio Guarisco and Fabio Andrico I have authorized to teach the Tsalungs of Mandarava.

Michael Katz I have authorized to teach my teachings on Dream Yoga.

All the SMS teachers are not automatically authorized to teach many practices, in order to teach a specific practice they should first have that concrete knowledge, experience, capacity and qualification.

Practitioners who are already leading some practices with practitioners who received the transmission should understand they are not authorized teachers. All practitioners and Gakyils should understand this.

To be considered teachers they should first be directly and officially authorized by the Teacher.

Dzamling Gar 13 05 2016

ChNN.
____________________________________________

Let’s look at the issues one by one.

“--- we all have to be sure that people who will teach have a concrete base and understanding,---” This is the key point as to who can teach. He also mentioned this clearly in his meeting with the SMS teachers in 2016. This sums up as, ‘before you can teach something, you have to have accomplished the practice’. I think that everyone agrees on this as common sense.

“---it is my responsibility, as the Teacher and main holder of the transmission and lineage, to be sure I have trust in the people I authorize.”

This again is obviously common sense, but it is notable that he describes himself as the, “--- main holder of the transmission and lineage,” these words recognize that ChNNR authenticates that there are other holders of the transmission and lineage. In Tibet, it is generally recognized that anyone having received a teaching is a lineage holder of that teaching.

Then, “I have this deep trust in my Son and my Daughter. Any teaching they received the transmission and instructions for, I have full confidence for them to teach.” Again, this is easily understandable, but the important point here is that even though he has deep trust in his son and daughter, he is only authorizing them to teach, “Any teaching they received the transmission and instructions for, ---” No one knows what they received instructions for except themselves. This remains to be discovered - if they are agreeable.

Following this, he is listing seven individuals who are linked to permission to teach specific practices. Here the key point is not whom he lists, but whom he does not list!

Many highly ranked SMS teachers, who studied and practiced for 40 years, are not on this list. Many well known SMS teachers, whom have given many teachings such as Adriano Clemente, Igor Berkhin, Oliver Leick, and Elias Caprilis, Steve Landsberg, and other popular SMS Instructors are NOT/ NOT on this list. Many other excellent, 40-year practitioners, from Merigar, are not on this list. Elio Guarisco is only authorized to teach one practice from the 120. (Personally, I believe that Elio accomplished many practices, because I have experienced him teaching and transmitting many practices.)

Fabio Andrico is only authorized to teach one practice, and no one in these letters is authorized to teach Yantra Yoga, or Vajra Dance. So, it is very interesting.

Then, “All the SMS teachers are not automatically authorized to teach many practices,---”

Again, you would think that this is very clear, except that most of the SMS teachers, teaching today, advertise themselves as “authorized SMS teacher” when they are teaching other teachings than SMS and this is surprising because this is clearly and specifically outlawed and forbidden in this letter of Rinpoche’s.

What this means is that people who are not genuine represent themselves as something they are not in order to gain stature, market share, and money. While this is understandable, it is hardly a flattering reflection on the character of those who use this false claim device, and by extension, it is a shameful reflection on the IDC, who should be enforcing this clearly stated, and circulated guidance from Rinpoche.

Then, “Practitioners who are already leading some practices with practitioners who received the transmission should understand they are not authorized, teachers. All practitioners and Gakyils should understand this.”

Again, this would appear to be straightforward, and easily understood, but this needs to be looked at more closely. ChNNR is not saying that these unauthorized teachers should be stopped or prevented, but only that practitioners and Gakyils should understand that they are unauthorized. However, what this means in practice is that “friends of the Gakyil” are allowed to teach whatever they want to and to bill themselves as “Authorized Teacher.”

The use of this phrase is unscrupulous. Allowing the use of the phrase “Authorized Teacher, or “Authorized SMS Instructor” or even “Authorized” in advertising for a course, gives a false impression. The impression to those who see this false advertising is that they will be taking a course of teachings from someone who is authorized by Rinpoche, and by extension the IG and the Gakyil. This is false advertising and should be regulated by the IG and the Gakyils as per Rinpoche’s explicit instructions in this letter, “All practitioners and Gakyils should understand this.”

Rinpoche concludes this letter with the thought, “To be considered teachers they should first be directly and officially authorized by the Teacher.” Again, this would appear at first glance to be straightforward and easily understood. But in practice, perhaps many want-to-be teachers bill themselves as “Instructors” and so seek to be in agreement with this letter. But in keeping with the meaning of Rinpoche’s words in this letter, this use of the word “instructor’ is still a false representation.

Also, this last sentence does not mention what happens when there is no teacher to go to for authorization.

It is clear by common sense, that the specific authorizations in this letter do not stay in effect forever. What happens when the specifically named individuals die? Obviously, the transmission has to go on somehow.

Rinpoche answers this question twice in this letter when he uses the phrases, “we all have to be sure that people who will teach have a concrete base and understanding---,” and,” in order to teach a specific practice they should first have that concrete knowledge, experience, capacity and qualification.” It would appear that in situations where there is no Teacher to go to, that the IG could authorize a “college of Spiritual Advisors, to serve in place of the Teacher when someone’s capacity to Teach needs to be authorized. This would help prevent “mushrooms” from using the name of ChNNR and the IDC when they are offering courses.

One other possibility would be to allow individuals to “self-certify” that they had accomplished a specific secondary practice. The proof of the pudding would be the street reputation of the self-certifying Teachers. Those who could Teach would be successful and build a following and those who could not Teach would not have followers.

It is of note that nowhere in this letter does ChNNR mention Direct Introduction, and who can and cannot give this. The implication is that DI is like any other practice and those who give it, “should first have that concrete knowledge, experience, capacity and qualification.”

In Nov. 2016 there was also a communication to everyone in a meeting with the SMS Instructors. From that communicatioon:

“For example some people say, “Oh, we need to invite Santi Maha Sangha teachers to give Dzogchen teachings of the Dzogchen Semde, or Longde,” or something like this. This is not good, because Dzogchen Semde and Longde are not in the Base.

In the Base there is all, from the refuge till the indication of tawa, gompa and chöpa, it explains how these three are in Hinayana, Mahayana, and then in Vajrayana, in Anuyoga, and Dzogchen, etc. So what we learned in the Base of the Santi Maha Sangha, this is what we can teach and inform. If you have some more capacity to go deeper that is not problem, it’s very good, but if you jump on something outside of that and you do some teachings that we have in our Dzogchen Community – in Shang Shung Editions we have so many secondary practices – then becoming teacher of the Santi Maha Sangha is becoming teacher of everything; I think this is not good, because we should go very precise on what is limited in the Base of the Santi Maha Sangha. Then if someone says, “Oh, these Santi Maha Sangha teachers could explain and do something just like the practice of the Mandarava, practice of something else”, (we have many secondary practices,) in this case I am not saying you couldn’t do that, you can do, but you should check first of all by yourselves, if you really know it or not. If you know everything very precise, then I say OK, then there is the possibility, and you can do something; no need to always ask me, something like a permission, etc, and I say OK to this, because otherwise it seems, “Oh I am teacher of Chöd, I am teacher of the Long Life Practice,” etc, it becomes strange. We have many things in Dzogchen Community, many practices. So Santi Maha Sangha teachers should check a little by themselves; if they really have knowledge etc, they can communicate. People are asking me, “I have this knowledge, can I do? Is it OK?” Then I say OK. Then you don’t need to say, “I received a permission, or not permission”. But it is better you ask me, for I am the teacher of you. So if we go that way, there will be no problems.

Because otherwise sometimes it becomes complicated.”

____________________________________________

So perhaps now it is necessary to observe ourselves, and our individual responsibility and capacity to preserve the Transmission Lineage, and collaborate within the wider Dzogchen Community.

If the Gars and Lings do not step up and work with the IG of the IDC to allow a one-member / one vote solution, after allowing a full responsible discussion of the issues, where is this going?

I pray (endlessly) it will end well.

Perhaps - dear reader - it is up to you - I am 75 years old and will not be here too much longer.

Most sincerely, oldbob - Bob Kragen

:heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

PeterC wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:57 am
Tongnyid Dorje wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:45 am so, Yeshi, who is not believing in reincarnation, karma, who doesnt want to have anything to do with DC and all tibetan stuff, is now going to give transmission of dzogchen teachings and everybody is ok with that, right?

just imagine, that you know some guy, who is not buddhist, dont believe in karma, and so on, even reject his sangha and then after one year out of the blue he is going to give teachings and transmissions. would you take it? would you create a samaya with him?
Without answering your question - I suspect we are 2-3 messages in this discussion away from some difficult discussions about the intent of ChNNr. There’s more than enough material on this site alone to allow people to make their own decision on Yeshi. I think we should avoid discussing this topic.
As far as I can see, there are just two ways out of this pickle:

(1) We agree that since Yeshi himself has said that ChNN did not authorise anyone, him included, to give transmission (and, anyway, Yeshi has also just as explicitly said that he wants to have no truck with the Community), whatever happens in Merigar, however named, has little to do with the DC (which, by the way, does not and never did advertise the event, which is taking place as a Merigar West thing, not a DC thing).
(2) The thread stays closed.

I do not believe we will agree on (1). Please feel free to prove me wrong, though.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Dear all and All,

:namaste:

It is my heartfelt prayer that we are to be informed by Ati Guruyoga as we are writing and reading here.

:meditate: :meditate: :meditate:

Please pause a minute and then read on in that spirit.

:heart:


“Because otherwise sometimes it becomes complicated.” ChNN 2016

When there is no Teacher to tell us what to do, “who can teach” can become complicated, but through observing ourselves (individually and together), working with circumstances, and collaboration, things become less complicated. Perhaps this was the skillful intention of ChNN by not leaving clear instructions.

Perhaps what one individual teaches, and how he teaches it, is just a very small part of the larger issue of how to ensure that the living Transmission Lineage of ChNN endures.

Perhaps what some call “Direct Introduction” (DI) is not the same as what ChNN called (DI).

Perhaps what some call “Dzogchen” is not the same as what ChNN called “Dzogchen.”

Same words but perhaps different usages, meanings, surrounding narratives and practices.

So perhaps the issue is not with one individual, and what he teaches or doesn't teach, but with the politicians of the Dzogchen Community who give one individual a platform from which to present his personal version of DI and Dzogchen.

Then the question arises as to where is the benefit for these politicians?

If the politicians backing one individual have not informed the 300 new-comers attending a proposed DI, about the “permission differences” between the DI of that individual, and the DI of ChNN, then perhaps these misunderstandings might later have serious consequences. Perhaps this is why an individual might require a written legal non-disclosure agreement and other written agreements before giving a DI.

If people, expecting to receive one thing receive another instead, they may be quite upset in the context of the expense and difficulty of getting to Merigar and taking the sincere risk of Covid in a social gathering, where not everyone may be vaccinated or wear an effective mask.

To the best of what is published, there seems to be no 100% safe way to avoid exposure to Covid in a social situation.

In this context, perhaps full disclosure of what will or will not be taught is a serious issue.

In the Dzogchen of Tibetan Buddhism, traditional permission to take up a practice comes from receiving a DI from a lineage holder, and then one receives the Lung Reading Authority (LRA) for a specific Secondary Practice. After receiving these two permissions, it is possible for a practitioner to receive the oral and written instructions for a specific practice in that lineage.

For many, without receiving both of these “permissions” it is not possible to feel “blessed” to actually have the practices achieve the desired spiritual effect. Whether this is actually true for everyone is a different question.

ChNN taught Dzogchen through presenting many DIs and LRAs, in over 650 Teaching events, over 40+ years.

Let’s assume that the DI of an individual is perfect and imparts a perfect experience of an introduction to the non-dual state of Ati in all who attend. Let’s assume that everyone attending “gets” it, and remains in non-dual contemplation for a while.

What is next?

In the 40+ years that I studied and practiced the Dzogchen of ChNN I never heard him say that his children could teach anything they wanted to within the Dzogchen Community.

“I have this deep trust in my Son and my Daughter. Any teaching they received the transmission and instructions for, I have full confidence for them to teach. If they decide they want to teach. But they should be free, and nobody should try to force them to teach.”

To the best of my knowledge, these are the only written or recorded words about what his children can, or cannot, teach. If someone has another verifiable source, please share it.

It is clear that ChNN’s children have permission to give teachings drawn from whatever material for which they have received “transmission and instructions.” The “freedom” spoken of is the freedom not to be forced to teach. The freedom spoken of is not the freedom to teach whatever they have NOT / NOT received through transmission and instructions.

What is next?

Should ChNN’s children be allowed to give their personal version of DI and Dzogchen within the structure of the Dzogchen Community?

Should the DI at Merigar be followed by DIs at other Gars and Lings?

This is the question on the table.

Perhaps an individual can be requested to give the LRAs in Italian (except for the mantras). Or perhaps the politicians will put themselves forward to give the LRAs and the explanations. All of which is fine if these individuals have completed the practices. But in the absence of a Living Enlightened Master, who is to determine who is the “Enlightened” student?

Does the IG, Local Gakyils, politicians, or the family of ChNN have this capacity?

Please read the two communications of 2016 as to who can teach. Clearly, ChNN said over and over again, that “anyone who has completed a practice can teach that practice.”


So ---

Perhaps now it is necessary to observe ourselves, (observe the Dzogchen Community) and, working with circumstances, collaborate within the wider IDC, to preserve the Living Transmission Lineage of ChNN and identify who has completed each of the practices of ChNN.

Perhaps it is our business to do our best to find a way of allowing easy and regular DIs and LRAs from living lineage holders. This has clearly not been the business of the IG, local Gakyils, politicians, or the family.

This clearly could be the business of the living Lineage Holders as specified in the 2 communications of 2016 as to who can teach.

Is there no one in the Dzogchen Community who is considered to have accomplished the practice of Dzogchen?

If there are such individuals, then how can we as a community recognize them and empower them to teach?

So, it is up to the Gars, Lings, and qualified individuals, to step up and work with the Members of the IDC to allow a full, responsible, and open discussion of all the issues.

Perhaps a one member / one-vote line item polling of all the Members, perhaps with the skilled guidance of a social scientist, skilled in leading discussions, is eventually a solution that will allow the survival of a democratic Dzogchen Community and the living Transmission Lineage of ChNN. This is how the New York Ling solved a difficult and thorny political issue. This social system worked to find a consensus solution because it respected the dimension of all the individuals involved.

In the absence of an Enlightened Master isn’t it better to allow a democratic vote of the Members. Whatever this vote determines, isn’t this the reflection of the collective dimension of the total community? Isn’t this an outcome that the majority will accept?

Perhaps equal access to the Teachings with regular and easy DIs and LRAs, under the guidance of “Enlightened” students is the way forward.

Please voice your thoughts here, on Norbunet, in the Mirror, and on Sangha, if allowed. If enough people speak up maybe the rules can change.

I pray (endlessly) for the success of the Dzogchen Community and that the living Transmission Lineage of ChNN will exist till the end of time.

Given the observed capacities of the IG, local Gakyiis, politicians, and involved individuals, perhaps now, this is also the business of all those who wish to follow the practices of the Transmission Lineage of ChNN.

Most sincerely, oldbob Bob Kragen


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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:39 pm As far as I can see, there are just two ways out of this pickle:

(1) We agree that since Yeshi himself has said that ChNN did not authorise anyone, him included, to give transmission (and, anyway, Yeshi has also just as explicitly said that he wants to have no truck with the Community), whatever happens in Merigar, however named, has little to do with the DC (which, by the way, does not and never did advertise the event, which is taking place as a Merigar West thing, not a DC thing).
(2) The thread stays closed.

I do not believe we will agree on (1). Please feel free to prove me wrong, though.
Not trying to prove you wrong.

The DC is unusual in that most lineages will not engage in long discussions of who is qualified to teach what. The textual criteria for being able to give an empowerment are pretty clear. Beyond that it’s largely a free market. Someone decides to offer an empowerment and students decide whether they want to take it or not. The reputation of that person and the recommendation of established teachers who know them may play a part in that.

ChNNr wrote and spoke at length about the role of the DC, and one thing he never said it was was some sort of general synod authorized to decide matters of doctrine. If someone wants to offer empowerments received from ChNNr, they can, and it’s up to everyone to decide whether they want to receive them from that person or not. In this particular case I think most of us on this thread have reached their respective conclusion.
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