Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Giovanni
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Giovanni »

PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:02 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:08 pm I'll bet it's the same old stuff, accusations of being a crypto-Bonpo, not "traditional" enough, etc.
It’s a little sad that despite all the lamas who were happy to associate with him - including the family of TUR, HHDL, and non-crypto-Bonpo Yongdzin R - this sort of whispering still goes on. Whatever. He made his feelings about Tibetan politics pretty clear in the biography of his uncle, and this just confirms that he was right.
It’s always been the Court of the Borgias. Even before the coming of the western dollar. When Dharma came west it floated on a heap of books all about a fantasy land called Antique Tibet. It was always romance.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:02 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:08 pm I'll bet it's the same old stuff, accusations of being a crypto-Bonpo, not "traditional" enough, etc.
It’s a little sad that despite all the lamas who were happy to associate with him - including the family of TUR, HHDL, and non-crypto-Bonpo Yongdzin R - this sort of whispering still goes on.
I tried to follow the official and semi-official reactions to Rinpoche's passing, and was quite shocked to discover that there was precious little response -- with the exception of the Bon camp (and the Bonpos' reaction was just stellar), some Dudjom Tersar lamas, Garchen Rinpoche and a handful of minor (position-wise) Longchen Nyingthik figures, almost nobody seemed to have noticed.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Norwegian »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:44 pm
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:02 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:08 pm I'll bet it's the same old stuff, accusations of being a crypto-Bonpo, not "traditional" enough, etc.
It’s a little sad that despite all the lamas who were happy to associate with him - including the family of TUR, HHDL, and non-crypto-Bonpo Yongdzin R - this sort of whispering still goes on.
I tried to follow the official and semi-official reactions to Rinpoche's passing, and was quite shocked to discover that there was precious little response -- with the exception of the Bon camp (and the Bonpos' reaction was just stellar), some Dudjom Tersar lamas, Garchen Rinpoche and a handful of minor (position-wise) Longchen Nyingthik figures, almost nobody seemed to have noticed.
Here's a reaction from Karma Gelek Yuthok, on behalf of the the Department of Religion and Culture of the Central Tibetan Administration: https://tibet.net/religion-and-culture- ... -rinpoche/

But, you are right, there wasn't much really.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:44 pm
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:02 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:08 pm I'll bet it's the same old stuff, accusations of being a crypto-Bonpo, not "traditional" enough, etc.
It’s a little sad that despite all the lamas who were happy to associate with him - including the family of TUR, HHDL, and non-crypto-Bonpo Yongdzin R - this sort of whispering still goes on.
I tried to follow the official and semi-official reactions to Rinpoche's passing, and was quite shocked to discover that there was precious little response -- with the exception of the Bon camp (and the Bonpos' reaction was just stellar), some Dudjom Tersar lamas, Garchen Rinpoche and a handful of minor (position-wise) Longchen Nyingthik figures, almost nobody seemed to have noticed.
You have to decide whose opinion you care about, I guess.

I didn’t follow the reactions - which Bonpo lamas made statements?
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Norwegian wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:17 pmHere's a reaction from Karma Gelek Yuthok, on behalf of the the Department of Religion and Culture of the Central Tibetan Administration: https://tibet.net/religion-and-culture- ... -rinpoche/
Thank you, forgot about this one!
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:28 pmI didn’t follow the reactions - which Bonpo lamas made statements?
Pretty much the whole Ligmincha camp -- TWR, of course (who actually wrote two texts on the occasion, conducted some pujas, etc), but also Yongdzin Rinpoche, Khenpo Tenpa Yungdrung, Nyima Oser Rinpoche, Geshe Gyatso, Chaphur Rinpoche. There were others for sure.

The overall near-silence makes the voices of Namgay Dawa Rinpoche, Karma Lhundup Rinpoche, Simdha Getul Rinpoche, etc. only more audible.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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heart
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:49 pm
Norwegian wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:17 pmHere's a reaction from Karma Gelek Yuthok, on behalf of the the Department of Religion and Culture of the Central Tibetan Administration: https://tibet.net/religion-and-culture- ... -rinpoche/
Thank you, forgot about this one!
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:28 pmI didn’t follow the reactions - which Bonpo lamas made statements?
Pretty much the whole Ligmincha camp -- TWR, of course (who actually wrote two texts on the occasion, conducted some pujas, etc), but also Yongdzin Rinpoche, Khenpo Tenpa Yungdrung, Nyima Oser Rinpoche, Geshe Gyatso, Chaphur Rinpoche. There were others for sure.

The overall near-silence makes the voices of Namgay Dawa Rinpoche, Karma Lhundup Rinpoche, Simdha Getul Rinpoche, etc. only more audible.
I think you can't be sure of that. A lot of people might have contacted the family without that being communicated to the community. I stopped paying my membership because during the months after Rinpoches death I didn't get any communication how Rinpoche died, who was present, what he said at that time if he said something. Why was he embalmed? Who decided that and so on? Now more than two years after his death this has still not been communicated.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:18 pm Why was he embalmed? Who decided that and so on?
According to what I have been told, Rinpoche decided his body was to be embalmed.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:26 pm
heart wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:18 pm Why was he embalmed? Who decided that and so on?
According to what I have been told, Rinpoche decided his body was to be embalmed.
I am not against it, I just don't understand why the students don't get informed.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:47 pm I am not against it, I just don't understand why the students don't get informed.
As far as I can tell, it is because Yeshe is in a conflict with the Dzogchen Community.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

heart wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:18 pm
I think you can't be sure of that. A lot of people might have contacted the family without that being communicated to the community. I stopped paying my membership because during the months after Rinpoches death I didn't get any communication how Rinpoche died, who was present, what he said at that time if he said something. Why was he embalmed? Who decided that and so on? Now more than two years after his death this has still not been communicated.

/magnus
Point taken. Truth be told, nothing of what I know about the response has been made public by the DC. And it is also fairly possible that the response, or the lack of it, was also due to our failure to communicate properly. It could explain, for instance, why there were (as far as I know ) no official representatives of Tibetan institutions at the "funeral" ceremony.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Sherab Rigdrol »

Please add Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche to the list of Lamas that supported Rinpoche.

I'm at the point where I most likely won't take teachings from any lama who has a negative opinion of ChNN.

For a Lama to think negative of or be dismissive of him and his massive accomplishments is indicative of his/her own limitations.

I miss him so much.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Sherab Rigdrol wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:06 pm Please add Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche to the list of Lamas that supported Rinpoche.

I'm at the point where I most likely won't take teachings from any lama who has a negative opinion of ChNN.

For a Lama to think negative of or be dismissive of him and his massive accomplishments is indicative of his/her own limitations.

I miss him so much.
:group:
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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heart
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:46 pm
heart wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:18 pm
I think you can't be sure of that. A lot of people might have contacted the family without that being communicated to the community. I stopped paying my membership because during the months after Rinpoches death I didn't get any communication how Rinpoche died, who was present, what he said at that time if he said something. Why was he embalmed? Who decided that and so on? Now more than two years after his death this has still not been communicated.

/magnus
Point taken. Truth be told, nothing of what I know about the response has been made public by the DC. And it is also fairly possible that the response, or the lack of it, was also due to our failure to communicate properly. It could explain, for instance, why there were (as far as I know ) no official representatives of Tibetan institutions at the "funeral" ceremony.
Feel free to tell us. I can't imagine a "funeral" ceremony for someone who been embalmed, anyway I find it very strange that DC communicate by gossip only. If you don't know someone that knows then you are not in the loop.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

heart wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:26 pmI find it very strange that DC communicate by gossip only. If you don't know someone that knows then you are not in the loop.

/magnus
By the funeral ceremony I meant the celebration that was webcasted, the open farewell event.

I agree very much about the communication problem, of course.

Edit: Ah, I can see what was ambiguous in my post. What I meant is this: the info about the support the DC received from other lamas after ChNN's passing has not been shared via the DC official channels.
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

heart wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:26 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:46 pm
heart wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:18 pm
I think you can't be sure of that. A lot of people might have contacted the family without that being communicated to the community. I stopped paying my membership because during the months after Rinpoches death I didn't get any communication how Rinpoche died, who was present, what he said at that time if he said something. Why was he embalmed? Who decided that and so on? Now more than two years after his death this has still not been communicated.

/magnus
Point taken. Truth be told, nothing of what I know about the response has been made public by the DC. And it is also fairly possible that the response, or the lack of it, was also due to our failure to communicate properly. It could explain, for instance, why there were (as far as I know ) no official representatives of Tibetan institutions at the "funeral" ceremony.
Feel free to tell us. I can't imagine a "funeral" ceremony for someone who been embalmed, anyway I find it very strange that DC communicate by gossip only. If you don't know someone that knows then you are not in the loop.

/magnus

In a nutshell, this describes a chunk of the current issues. You aren't the only one that has a hard time justifying dues with this kind of behavior.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

heart wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:26 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:46 pm
heart wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:18 pm
I think you can't be sure of that. A lot of people might have contacted the family without that being communicated to the community. I stopped paying my membership because during the months after Rinpoches death I didn't get any communication how Rinpoche died, who was present, what he said at that time if he said something. Why was he embalmed? Who decided that and so on? Now more than two years after his death this has still not been communicated.

/magnus
Point taken. Truth be told, nothing of what I know about the response has been made public by the DC. And it is also fairly possible that the response, or the lack of it, was also due to our failure to communicate properly. It could explain, for instance, why there were (as far as I know ) no official representatives of Tibetan institutions at the "funeral" ceremony.
Feel free to tell us. I can't imagine a "funeral" ceremony for someone who been embalmed, anyway I find it very strange that DC communicate by gossip only. If you don't know someone that knows then you are not in the loop.

/magnus
I always find these statements about the DCs lack of transparency a little strange. I certainly agree it could do with being more so, but very few organisations are particularly good at transparency, and Tibetan Buddhist sanghas some of the least of all. I actually find the DC to be more transparent than most. It feels like they are held to a different standard as I've never seen complaints about other sanghas transparency here.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:49 pm
heart wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:26 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:46 pm

Point taken. Truth be told, nothing of what I know about the response has been made public by the DC. And it is also fairly possible that the response, or the lack of it, was also due to our failure to communicate properly. It could explain, for instance, why there were (as far as I know ) no official representatives of Tibetan institutions at the "funeral" ceremony.
Feel free to tell us. I can't imagine a "funeral" ceremony for someone who been embalmed, anyway I find it very strange that DC communicate by gossip only. If you don't know someone that knows then you are not in the loop.

/magnus
I always find these statements about the DCs lack of transparency a little strange. I certainly agree it could do with being more so, but very few organisations are particularly good at transparency, and Tibetan Buddhist sanghas some of the least of all. I actually find the DC to be more transparent than most. It feels like they are held to a different standard as I've never seen complaints about other sanghas transparency here.
The DC is hardly a "Tibetan Buddhist" sangha in the sense of carrying on Tibetan cultural mores in a religious setting, and the majority of it's members are not culturally Tibetan, and it's structure is radically different from typical Tibetan religious settings... so I don't see the link.

As far as transparency, particular wrt to communication, almost every other Dharma group I have ever been involved in has better communication than the DC. That includes a lineage I am involved in where one of the heads passed on a few years prior to Rinpoche. Some of that I acknowledge might just be relative size.

The DC has amazing teachers, some things going for it, but IMO communication and transparency really is not one of them. It's anarchic and in that sense egalitarian to a degree...kind of, almost based on the notion of affinity groups. That's cool in some ways, but that doesn't make it transparent, just different. In fact in some ways the lack of central organization and messages makes transparency in communication difficult to achieve.

Relatedly, It also means that sometimes people put themselves into positions that are pretty inappropriate in an ostensibly egalitarian institution which tries to avoid coercion....and because there is no real organization, there is nothing to check their behavior. This is the same problem that exists with organizations based mainly on informal consensus rather than other processes. The loudest people in the center (regardless of what their message is in comparison to the quieter ones) determine what things look like to the people on the outer edges rings of the mandala, and because of this it is impossible for anyone but the group closer to the center of the mandala to have any idea what is going on.

Personally, that is my issue, I hold them to the same standard as the other handful of Dharma organizations I've experienced, and transparency and communication appears to not even be an item on the agenda really. That's fine, there's advantages to not putting resources into organization, and to being so non-hierarchical...or trying to. It also means that a number of people (especially those farthest from the "inner circle" such as it is) have no real reason to continue.

I have some experience in my life with this kind of organization. Unfortunately, once the cohesive and brilliant voice in the center (in this case Rinpoche) is gone, the echo of what is going on is so faint that no one but a few central people can really hear it anymore.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:14 pm As far as transparency, particular wrt to communication, almost every other Dharma group I have ever been involved in has better communication than the DC.
That surprises me. I have varying degrees of involvement with the communities of Mingyur Rinpoche, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, Tsoknyi Rinpoche and Thrangu Rinpoche, plus have had passing encounters with plenty of others. I wouldn't say a bad word about any of them, but if you really want to compare transparency, they're all black boxes compared to the DC.

In terms of understanding the community and what's going on, what the resources are, where money's being spent, what's happening at the management level at all the various Dharma and retreat centres, who's making decisions, and why, and so on, the amount that's available through reading The Mirror/NorbuNet and watching AGMs goes miles beyond any of the others. I'm not saying that to paint the DC as somehow 'better', as you say, it's a very different sort of organisation of course. I'm always just surprised that on a forum about Tibetan Buddhism, people following various Tibetan teachers tend to have the most communication/transparency complaints about what appears to me to be one of the most communicative/transparent organisations. Not to put it on pedestal though, of course it could be a lot better.

The place where there is very little communication is matters that concern the family, and that's their choice, not the DCs.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Transparency has directly to do with how information gets communicated to -the entire- organization, not simply with the fact that information is technically available somewhere or other upon beginning a search for it. That is transparent in theory, but not practice.

Would you like an example?

Here you go:

Who decided that the huge volume of video of Rinpoche would be discretionarily dealt with, and on what basis do they make their decisions? Who makes those decisions and why? It’s not that I’m suspicious, but I’ve heard many times ‘this is how Rinpoche wanted it’, with no further explanation.

I’ve not been able to find this information on the video archive anywhere else. It might exist, if so there is no obvious policy or rationale for it anywhere.

Particularly with Rinpoche gone, questions like this on the video archive are big, about legacy and what is available after his death. In fact, with an organization like the DC, such a question should practically be anticipated. I’ll abide by whatever Rinpoche wanted obviously, but where is that information? These are the sorts of places where messaging and transparency really matter to me.

Do you know where I can find the answer? I don’t really have time to initiate a search of the 5000 different places DC stuff exists, and if I did, I wouldn’t know where to look, and have never received a satisfactory answer to date.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Giovanni »

This is important I think. There is a feeling to me that some of the people that see the events from a long away away think that the family of Rinpoche owes them something. I think the family rejects this. I do not see their hearts, but I see their silence.
I say again, those who have practices from Rinpoche should do. Those who do not should find other teachers. This is in kindness.
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