Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2507
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

As far as Western-born Vajrayana practitioners I have met in person go, Elio was second to none. A kinder, humbler and more selflessly helpful soul I have yet to meet (and there was so much more to appreciate and praise here).

Here is Elio at Rinchenling, teaching Mahayana and Dzogchen/Mahamudra (I am linking just the first part, but the whole retreat is available on YouTube):



He is holding nothing back. All that one needs to practice is here, generously and patiently given.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
Aloke
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:27 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aloke »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:10 pm
pemachophel wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:40 pm Magnus, So very sorry to hear this. My wife and I will do sur for him for 49 days.
No need, he is a Dzogchen practitioner with deep understanding of the path. He is not an ordinary person for whom we need to do Shitro, sur, and these kinds of things.

The correct thing to do is sing do Ati Guru Yoga and sing Song of the Vajra in his honor.
Dear all,
Today we have Shitro for Elio Guarisco at 5:00 pm Italian Time from Dzamling Gar - https://webcast.dzogchen.net/index.php? ... ther-html5


Kind regards,

Webcast Team

The Community did Shitro for him. Why not? Out of respect any practice is great. Sur is also an offering to the Three Jewels, (not just giving "food" to beings without physical body) no problem at all to do it in his honor.
Last edited by Aloke on Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Aloke wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:36 pm The Community did Shitro for him. Why not?
There is no need to do it FOR Elio. But people like to get together and mourn.

I, on the other hand, prefer to celebrate Elio's liberation in the bardo. YMMV.
90hj209gh0g49h
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 11:24 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by 90hj209gh0g49h »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:37 pm I, on the other hand, prefer to celebrate Elio's liberation in the bardo. YMMV.
I really appreciate this sentiment. Thank you
Moha
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:20 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Moha »

DYING IN THE STATE OF GURUYOGA
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu
The Practice of the Night
When you die, it is just as if you are falling asleep. When you go to sleep, you are doing visualization of white A in a thigle. You are being in that clarity. In the same way, you are being in that state of Guruyoga when you die. Then there is a continuation of presence with which you can recognize very well the bardo of Dharmata, the state before your mind wakes up. Your primordial potentiality of sound, light, and rays manifests nakedly. If during your life time you received transmission of Shitro, then the sound, light, and rays manifest as wrathful and peaceful deities. You can also recognize the manifestation of your real potentiality and have total realization at that moment. You no longer have to continue in the ordinary bardo, the bardo of existence. So the best and the most important practice or training for dying is Guruyoga.
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner, you become familiar with Guruyoga all your life. So when you discover that you are dying, you get in the state of your instant presence, in the state of Guruyoga. There is nowhere and nothing to transfer. Instant presence is beyond mental concepts. When you are being in that state, however, it does not mean you are ignoring what is happening on the mental level. You notice everything, but you are not suffering from that because you are being in instant presence. You notice, for example, all your sensations just as if you are being in the nature of the mirror where there can be many kinds of reflections.
The most important thing is that you are following a teacher who can really introduce you to the essence of the teaching. When you have this possibility and you receive a Vajrayana initiation such as Shitro or Vajrasattva – not just a blessing – and you know what is going on, then it is possible that you will have the vision of the peaceful and wrathful manifestations when the bardo of Dharmata manifests. Since these initiations and practices are connected with the bardo of Dharmata and we have received these teachings, followed a teacher and experienced the practices during our lifetime, it is possible to have these visions even if we are not totally realized, because these transmissions are related with our condition. When we are being in the bardo of Dharmata, there is no function of mind. Our potentiality is manifesting nakedly. That is the reason we can have visions of the wrathful and peaceful deities. If we have never received any initiations, any transmissions, and we don’t have any of that knowledge, at the time of the bardo of Dharmata, we could not have any experiences of this kind.
May be you have learned Phowa and think, “Oh! I can do Phowa!” That is also good if you have really learned and have that capacity. When we are learning Phowa, however, it is not so very difficult because we are living in our room doing visualization, and there is no problem. But Phowa is what we need when we are dying and it is not so easy to apply complicated visualization at the moment of death.
Today we have different schools and traditions. They always say that their Phowa is better than others. But in the real sense all Phowas are the same. There is no difference. The only little difference is the lineage and the invocations. For example, if a Phowa is related with Kagyüpa traditions, then they are doing prayers and invocations to the Kagyüpa lineage. If they are Sakyapa, they make prayers to the Sakyapa lineage; if they are Gelupa, they pray to the Gelupa lineage. That is a little different. But visualization is always almost the same for all. Sometimes, I find a little difference in some methods of the Nyingmapa tradition because some of them are very much connected with kumbhaka. The Phowa of other traditions does not use kumbhaka.

There is a Phowa from my teacher Changchub Dorje. It is explaining that there are three kinds of Phowa. Firstly, we have the Dharmakaya Phowa. Then, there is a Sambhogakaya Phowa and finally, Nirmanakaya Phowa. Those who have high capacity are concentrating more on the Dharmakaya Phowa. If they have a little less capacity, then they do the Sambhogakaya style. People who have the least capacity practice the Nirmanakaya Phowa.

The Dharmakaya Phowa is similar to the moment we are going to sleep. If you have learned very well the Guruyoga for sleeping, and you have succeeded to do that, in one year you are going to repeat that three hundred and sixty-five times.

Phowa of Dharmakaya really means you are being in the state of Guruyoga. Remember that when we do Guruyoga, the white A and thigle represent the primordial state, the state of Dharmakaya. When you notice you are going to die, you don’t need many things to visualize. You trained all your life doing Guruyoga, and now you are familiar with that state. At the moment of death you are just being in the state of Guruyoga. You are no longer being in your ordinary way. You are being in the state of instant presence. For that reason we say that the practice of Guruyoga is also preparation for death. If you really have the capacity to be in the state of Guruyoga, you can die that way. You don’t need any particular Phowa. This is the supreme Phowa.
I remember someone from California who had followed a few of my teaching retreats called me. He had AIDS and he was slowly dying. Many people were worried and asking, “What can we do? How can we help?” Some people said, “Oh! He must learn Phowa now!” But how is it possible for a dying person to learn Phowa! Then some people said, “Oh! We should invite some lama to make Phowa for him!” They were very worried and sent me emails. At that time I was in Australia. I responded and told them, “You ask him if he remembers how to do Guruyoga.” When they asked him, he said, “Oh yes! I always do Guruyoga!” Then I said, “There is no difference between your death and your sleep. They are always the same. When you fall asleep, you visualize white A and thigle. You are being in that presence. You also die that way and maybe you can also have total realization in the state of the bardo of Dharmata. Don’t call any lama! Don’t teach him Phowa! This is not the correct moment.” They followed my instructions and everybody was satisfied. When he was dying, the community people were present and they sang the Song of Vajra. When he finished his last breath, he sounded A and passed away. That is what he did and that is the best Phowa.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Ignorant_Fool wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:24 am
DYING IN THE STATE OF GURUYOGA
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu
The Practice of the Night...
Exactly.
User avatar
climb-up
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Ignorant_Fool wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:24 am
...
So beautiful and so powerful.
Thank you for sharing it. I’m sure we’ve all read it before, but it’s so great to read again fresh (I’m inspired to reread the whole book now).
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
Hansei
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:02 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Hansei »

Ignorant_Fool wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:24 am
DYING IN THE STATE OF GURUYOGA
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu
The Practice of the Night
Thank you for sharing this.
Asahi
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:46 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Asahi »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:34 pm
Aloke wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:50 pm
heart wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:03 pm Perhaps with this we can discuss what really happened and what the situation actually is.



/magnus
Could you please tell us the source for this? A friend of mine was very concerned about the situation and I sent her this, she asked me the source and I said it probably was sent in Norbunet. As I have unsubscribe from Norbunet (after receiving those cryptic confusing e-mails) I can't check this by my own. Thank you very much!
The source for this is the Russian Mirror. It is accurate, as I have checked it with senior members of the community who were present.
Thanks Malcolm. From what I've seen, you are generally pretty accurate and thorough.
I'm interested to know why Yeshe has such beliefs and attitudes.
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 3275
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am
Location: He/Him from EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Hi, I would like to ask what happened that Palyul Choktrul felt that this needed to be said?
Attachments
127777471_4012633698763984_3009363067258866144_o.jpg
127777471_4012633698763984_3009363067258866144_o.jpg (148.32 KiB) Viewed 2820 times
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:03 pm Hi, I would like to ask what happened that Palyul Choktrul felt that this needed to be said?
What rumors?
Norwegian
Posts: 2632
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Norwegian »

Könchok Thrinley,

I have no idea if there's anything "new" that has happened, in terms of slander and its content, but I am quite sure it's just more of the tired same-old same-old, in other words utter nonsense and bullshit of the highest order (if it's something new, well I would like to hear whatever it would be, as I am sure it's silly.)

This is something that usually occurs in the Tibetan exile community, of some unfortunate people who concluded that Rinpoche had many faults (some of the dumbest complaints I've heard about was that he wore Western clothes, for example.) There were other slanderous remarks too, but it's all rather boring.

If these people - teachers or not - had ever met Rinpoche, received teachings from him, and really talked to him, their doubts would've evaporated like mist in the morning sun, no question about it.

But then this isn't really a very original phenomena, recall that even in old Tibet, many fantastic masters were slandered by unfortunate people (and there are people today who slanders His Holiness the Dalai Lama, as we all know.)
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2507
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:03 pm Hi, I would like to ask what happened that Palyul Choktrul felt that this needed to be said?
Where does it come from?
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 3275
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am
Location: He/Him from EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:53 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:03 pm Hi, I would like to ask what happened that Palyul Choktrul felt that this needed to be said?
Where does it come from?
For some reason it has been appearing on my FB feed for several days now. Unfortunately don't remember exact places, but I think one of them was from a personal page of Palyul Choktrul. But please don't quote me on this.
Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:32 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:03 pm Hi, I would like to ask what happened that Palyul Choktrul felt that this needed to be said?
What rumors?
I don't know. That is why I posted it here as it confused me and I have not heard any really.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 3275
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am
Location: He/Him from EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Norwegian wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:40 pm Könchok Thrinley,

I have no idea if there's anything "new" that has happened, in terms of slander and its content, but I am quite sure it's just more of the tired same-old same-old, in other words utter nonsense and bullshit of the highest order (if it's something new, well I would like to hear whatever it would be, as I am sure it's silly.)

This is something that usually occurs in the Tibetan exile community, of some unfortunate people who concluded that Rinpoche had many faults (some of the dumbest complaints I've heard about was that he wore Western clothes, for example.) There were other slanderous remarks too, but it's all rather boring.

If these people - teachers or not - had ever met Rinpoche, received teachings from him, and really talked to him, their doubts would've evaporated like mist in the morning sun, no question about it.

But then this isn't really a very original phenomena, recall that even in old Tibet, many fantastic masters were slandered by unfortunate people (and there are people today who slanders His Holiness the Dalai Lama, as we all know.)
Yeah, I honestly think it is exactly this that is going on. Just surprised it needed a stance like this from his nephew, so I was wondering if some "worse" rumors were being spread around.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2507
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:08 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:53 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:03 pm Hi, I would like to ask what happened that Palyul Choktrul felt that this needed to be said?
Where does it come from?
For some reason it has been appearing on my FB feed for several days now. Unfortunately don't remember exact places, but I think one of them was from a personal page of Palyul Choktrul. But please don't quote me on this
Thanks. Will try to find it on FB.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:09 pm
Norwegian wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:40 pm Könchok Thrinley,

I have no idea if there's anything "new" that has happened, in terms of slander and its content, but I am quite sure it's just more of the tired same-old same-old, in other words utter nonsense and bullshit of the highest order (if it's something new, well I would like to hear whatever it would be, as I am sure it's silly.)

This is something that usually occurs in the Tibetan exile community, of some unfortunate people who concluded that Rinpoche had many faults (some of the dumbest complaints I've heard about was that he wore Western clothes, for example.) There were other slanderous remarks too, but it's all rather boring.

If these people - teachers or not - had ever met Rinpoche, received teachings from him, and really talked to him, their doubts would've evaporated like mist in the morning sun, no question about it.

But then this isn't really a very original phenomena, recall that even in old Tibet, many fantastic masters were slandered by unfortunate people (and there are people today who slanders His Holiness the Dalai Lama, as we all know.)
Yeah, I honestly think it is exactly this that is going on. Just surprised it needed a stance like this from his nephew, so I was wondering if some "worse" rumors were being spread around.
I'll bet it's the same old stuff, accusations of being a crypto-Bonpo, not "traditional" enough, etc.

In other words:
Dhammapada wrote: It is not new, O Atula! It has always been done from ancient times. They blame one who is silent, they blame one who speaks much, they blame one who speaks little. There is no one in this world who is not blamed.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 3275
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am
Location: He/Him from EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:08 pm I'll bet it's the same old stuff, accusations of being a crypto-Bonpo, not "traditional" enough, etc.

In other words:
Dhammapada wrote: It is not new, O Atula! It has always been done from ancient times. They blame one who is silent, they blame one who speaks much, they blame one who speaks little. There is no one in this world who is not blamed.
Nice and fitting quote I guess. Well since even negative connection is a connection I guess many are lucky to have a strong connection.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
PeterC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:08 pm I'll bet it's the same old stuff, accusations of being a crypto-Bonpo, not "traditional" enough, etc.
It’s a little sad that despite all the lamas who were happy to associate with him - including the family of TUR, HHDL, and non-crypto-Bonpo Yongdzin R - this sort of whispering still goes on. Whatever. He made his feelings about Tibetan politics pretty clear in the biography of his uncle, and this just confirms that he was right.
Tata1
Posts: 771
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:57 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

People being people, tibetans being tibetan
Locked

Return to “Dzogchen”