Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

it is the idc that must adapt to YN, not YN to the idc. that is the way.

when we studied the blue book and the blue print it was clear clear thar things must go in the way the master pointa out.

the reluctancy to change the community and practitioners habits ia the serious obstacle here.

we members can offer this, to whom we want to be our teacher.
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:19 pm it is the idc that must adapt to YN, not YN to the idc. that is the way.
Or the dc can just do what they want and leave Yeshi to do whatever he wants, since he has explicitly said he wants nothing to do with it.

Have you had a discussion with someone who was in the meeting? There’s no common ground here
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Fa Dao
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Fa Dao »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:19 pm it is the idc that must adapt to YN, not YN to the idc. that is the way.

when we studied the blue book and the blue print it was clear clear thar things must go in the way the master pointa out.

the reluctancy to change the community and practitioners habits ia the serious obstacle here.

we members can offer this, to whom we want to be our teacher.
Hey bro..why dont you get a petition going to ask the IDC to ask Yeshi to take over as The Teacher for IDC...with everyone signing knowing that things will be different from how ChNN ran things?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Fa Dao wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:50 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:19 pm it is the idc that must adapt to YN, not YN to the idc. that is the way.

when we studied the blue book and the blue print it was clear clear thar things must go in the way the master pointa out.

the reluctancy to change the community and practitioners habits ia the serious obstacle here.

we members can offer this, to whom we want to be our teacher.
Hey bro..why dont you get a petition going to ask the IDC to ask Yeshi to take over as The Teacher for IDC...with everyone signing knowing that things will be different from how ChNN ran things?
It was already asked, he said no.
javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:04 pm
Fa Dao wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:50 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:19 pm it is the idc that must adapt to YN, not YN to the idc. that is the way.

when we studied the blue book and the blue print it was clear clear thar things must go in the way the master pointa out.

the reluctancy to change the community and practitioners habits ia the serious obstacle here.

we members can offer this, to whom we want to be our teacher.
Hey bro..why dont you get a petition going to ask the IDC to ask Yeshi to take over as The Teacher for IDC...with everyone signing knowing that things will be different from how ChNN ran things?
It was already asked, he said no.
he said no to the idc as it is, as it has being/became all this years.
Last edited by javier.espinoza.t on Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sādhaka
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Sādhaka »

Apparently, the son of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu and Tulku of Jamyang Khyentse Wangchug doesn’t even believe in rebirth.

If this is true, it’s pretty disappointing. I myself admittedly sometimes question things like rebirth and so on. But if you think about it, it’s at least much more logical than eternal heaven & hell and atheist-materialist annihilationism; and, without rebirth, Buddhadharma including Dzogchen doesn’t have much sense.

Of course we don’t want to jump to conclusions, because maybe someone misheard what Khyentse Yeshe said and/or took it out of context....

It seems that Khyentse Yeshe and Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s daughter are the only ones authorized to give complete transmission.

And it’s unclear as to what exactly Khenpo Yeshe Wangpo is authorized to teach.
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:10 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:04 pm
Fa Dao wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:50 pm

Hey bro..why dont you get a petition going to ask the IDC to ask Yeshi to take over as The Teacher for IDC...with everyone signing knowing that things will be different from how ChNN ran things?
It was already asked, he said no.
he said no to the idc as it is, as it has being all this years. it needs to be refounded.
Actually he was also asked by people teach anything, literally whatever he wanted.
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Sādhaka wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:10 pm It seems that Khyentse Yeshe and Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s daughter are the only ones authorized to give complete transmission.
That’s the wrong conclusion. Nobody “owns” a “transmission”. To understand this you just have to look at what ChNNr himself did.

Dzogchen is practiced on the basis of introduction to the nature of mind. This introduction can be done in many different ways, elaborate, unelaborate, etc., and we can debate the extent to which it is the same or different as other types of pointing out, but it is the fundamental requirement for practice. Then on the basis of that introduction, you receive reading transmission and explanations of practices which you then engage in.

ChNNr gave introduction in a certain way, and then he gave reading transmissions and explanations of all sorts of practices. Some were his termas, some were termas of many other people - Adzom Drukpa, Changchub dorje, Ayu Khandro, Dzogchen tantras, etc. These were all teachings for which he had received the lungs and explanations himself.

If you want to practice the things he taught, you need (a) direct introduction from someone able to give it, and (b) the lungs and explanations of whatever practices you want to do from someone who has properly received them. That’s it.

speculation about “who is responsible for the transmission and authorized to confer it” is really missing the point. Half the teachings ChNNr passed on were teachings that other people also hold. He didn’t “own” their “transmission”. Nobody “owns” a lineage of introduction. What is introduced by every Dzogchen master is exactly the same. If it were different, there would be thousands of different natures of mind out there.

What *is* different and special about ChNNr’s teachings are his own termas. If because of some fear of corrupting the transmission nobody gives lungs and explanations of those, in a few decades they will be gone from the world. I think I’ve said that too many times already so I’ll shut up on this point.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:26 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:19 pm it is the idc that must adapt to YN, not YN to the idc. that is the way.
Or the dc can just do what they want and leave Yeshi to do whatever he wants, since he has explicitly said he wants nothing to do with it.

Have you had a discussion with someone who was in the meeting? There’s no common ground here
Yes. This.

To speculate what yeshi believes or what he's experience if of the teaching ita pointless.

ChNN said thay both their sons where authorized to teach anything he trasmitted to them, but that they shouldnt be forced to do anything and be left alone.

I, myself will try to follow Chnn "command", at least in my mind. The most important thing is to keep our pure vision with each other which the master said over and over.
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heart
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Sādhaka wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:10 pm It seems that Khyentse Yeshe and Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s daughter are the only ones authorized to give complete transmission.
He says no one is authorised.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Mantrik wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:20 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:50 am
Mantrik wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:23 am Such notes are notoriously difficult to phrase accurately.

''He believes that no one is authorized to give Direct Introduction in the Chögyal Namkhai Norbu lineage.''

He may not, but at the same time makes it clear he is not connected, and therefore carries no authority to prevent others doing do.
However, out of respect for the family, this must surely end all DI in the lineage.
Those senior students may now feel, nevertheless, that they can give DI in their own right in new lineages.
I am not sure that the only options are Yeshi giving DI / nobody giving DI / 'new lineages' from senior students. I think this is a false choice.

If a student of ChNNr is qualified to give empowerment then this isn't a new lineage - it's someone passing on the same lineage as ChNNr.
My focus was on DI.
But as you mention empowerments, I wonder how someone receives an empowerment 'in the Chögyal Namkhai Norbu lineage' without DI. If you see what I mean, the market is now very finite, assuming anyone will now offer after Yeshi's statement that none is 'authorised'.
And there can't be anyone 'qualified' unless they are 'authorised', surely?
DI is an empowerment.
Authorization is relative. Time passes, the condition of the students evolve. There have been lots of cases of students teaching lot of tine after the teachers death withou any formal authorization
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik »

Tata1 wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:07 pm Authorization is relative.
Not, I believe in this context. ChNN was clear who he authorised to teach what, and YN is also crystal clear. The father is dead so whose view do we honour here?:

''He believes that no one is authorized to give Direct Introduction in the Chögyal Namkhai Norbu lineage.''
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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Mantrik wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:18 pm
Tata1 wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:07 pm Authorization is relative.
Not, I believe in this context. ChNN was clear who he authorised to teach what, and YN is also crystal clear. The father is dead so whose view do we honour here?:

''He believes that no one is authorized to give Direct Introduction in the Chögyal Namkhai Norbu lineage.''
But what does that sentence even mean? Does it mean that no student of ChNNr will ever be able to give a Dzogchen empowerment? How could anyone know that now? What is “direct introduction in the ChNNr lineage”? Does it lead to a different result from direct introduction by another master? If not, and if that master gave you all the same practices, what’s the ChNNr lineage secret sauce that YN claims nobody possesses?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Mantrik wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:18 pm
Tata1 wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:07 pm Authorization is relative.
Not, I believe in this context. ChNN was clear who he authorised to teach what, and YN is also crystal clear. The father is dead so whose view do we honour here?:

''He believes that no one is authorized to give Direct Introduction in the Chögyal Namkhai Norbu lineage.''
I wasnt there so i wont speculate about what yeshi said or ment.
The fact that Chnn in 2016 said what he said doesnt mean its gonna be like that forever, the condition of the students evolve. If someone feels that upon the request of students is capable to trasmit something then is up to each individual student to judge and see if they have faith in that teachers capacity or not. The same way you are supposed to do with every teacher
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:19 pm it is the idc that must adapt to YN, not YN to the idc. that is the way.

when we studied the blue book and the blue print it was clear clear thar things must go in the way the master pointa out.

the reluctancy to change the community and practitioners habits ia the serious obstacle here.

we members can offer this, to whom we want to be our teacher.
After the recent revelations, I for one do not want him to be my teacher.

He does not want to be our teacher, in any case, and was really explicit about it.

Also, applying the traditional teacher-first logic makes no sense whatsoever here: Yeshi, again explicitly, entirely dismisses the traditional approach.

One of the reasons why we need an official statement is to cut short such stretches: no, he is not going to take the helm.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:26 pm
Mantrik wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:18 pm
Tata1 wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:07 pm Authorization is relative.
Not, I believe in this context. ChNN was clear who he authorised to teach what, and YN is also crystal clear. The father is dead so whose view do we honour here?:

''He believes that no one is authorized to give Direct Introduction in the Chögyal Namkhai Norbu lineage.''
But what does that sentence even mean? Does it mean that no student of ChNNr will ever be able to give a Dzogchen empowerment? How could anyone know that now? What is “direct introduction in the ChNNr lineage”? Does it lead to a different result from direct introduction by another master? If not, and if that master gave you all the same practices, what’s the ChNNr lineage secret sauce that YN claims nobody possesses?
I wonder in terms of which framework should we be reading such statements of Yeshi? Surely not any of traditional TB ones, which he dismisses out of hand? A Western legal framework, then? Perhaps in his eyes it is a copyright issue?
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:50 pm Perhaps in his eyes it is a copyright issue?
The skeptic would see it that way. It’s a plausible explanation.

I’m not a copyright lawyer but this area of the law isn’t complicated. The two relevant questions are whether copyright was assigned by ChNNr to one of the DC entities, what rights were assigned and who legally controls the receiving entity; and if It was not assigned and remained in the estate of ChNNr, what his will said about the disposition of that estate.

Either way what Yeshi says doesn’t make much difference. He either has enforceable rights or he doesn’t. There may be an issue around whether he acquiesced to the DC enjoying certain rights of use, and what was said would then become relevant, but at this point he has acquiesced to the DC’s conduct for almost two years after ChNNr’s passing, and that would carry more weight than anything he says now. Also a court would be primarily concerned about the enjoyment of economic rights, not the ability to give teachings.

TLDR: Yeshi isn’t a lawyer.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Norwegian »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:45 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:19 pm it is the idc that must adapt to YN, not YN to the idc. that is the way.

when we studied the blue book and the blue print it was clear clear thar things must go in the way the master pointa out.

the reluctancy to change the community and practitioners habits ia the serious obstacle here.

we members can offer this, to whom we want to be our teacher.
After the recent revelations, I for one do not want him to be my teacher.

He does not want to be our teacher, in any case, and was really explicit about it.

Also, applying the traditional teacher-first logic makes no sense whatsoever here: Yeshi, again explicitly, entirely dismisses the traditional approach.

One of the reasons why we need an official statement is to cut short such stretches: no, he is not going to take the helm.
The ball is entirely in the court of the Dzogchen Community as an official body. They have to make clear and must make clear what their vision is, what the way forward is. No more waiting. No more keeping things within the four walls of tired bureaucracy.

So, I see two approaches possibly manifesting: The first one (our current state of things), which we're all too painfully aware of by now, is aligned with the complete lack of care from Yeshi, along with his rather contradictory approach on top of this as well. Personally, this option I do not consider very viable in the long run.

The second approach, I believe, goes in the direction of what Steven Landsberg outlined. This is more healthy. For everybody. I hope this is where we're heading.

Now, aside from the question of the Dzogchen Community itself and its future, there's the question of the continuation of the lineage. And here I think that the lineage must continue, with or without the Dzogchen community as an official body.

For a lineage to continue, one needs practitioners that are qualified to teach, in the context of Dzogchen, which means giving DI, giving empowerment, giving transmission, giving teachings, and giving instructions. And so it's the same as we know from before, that a potential student should investigate the potential teacher for a long time, etc. If someone is qualified to teach, they do so out of compassion and Bodhicitta, and because sentient beings again and again requests them to teach. They do not start to teach because they received a diploma with a signature, a golden star, and a stamp of approval. This is also not how the Buddha started to teach.

So, how did the Buddha start to teach? Well, people can read for themselves here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
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Mantrik
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Mantrik »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:50 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:26 pm
Mantrik wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:18 pm

Not, I believe in this context. ChNN was clear who he authorised to teach what, and YN is also crystal clear. The father is dead so whose view do we honour here?:

''He believes that no one is authorized to give Direct Introduction in the Chögyal Namkhai Norbu lineage.''
But what does that sentence even mean? Does it mean that no student of ChNNr will ever be able to give a Dzogchen empowerment? How could anyone know that now? What is “direct introduction in the ChNNr lineage”? Does it lead to a different result from direct introduction by another master? If not, and if that master gave you all the same practices, what’s the ChNNr lineage secret sauce that YN claims nobody possesses?
I wonder in terms of which framework should we be reading such statements of Yeshi? Surely not any of traditional TB ones, which he dismisses out of hand? A Western legal framework, then? Perhaps in his eyes it is a copyright issue?
All of which comes full circle back to a leaderless organisation with no real idea who is authorised to do what, legally or ethically.
We've given it enough time, and I decided some time ago that the DC project died with the Master.
The seeds he planted will bear fruit for sure, but not on that particular tree unless one of the other senior figures decides that with Yeshi apparently declining, they can take the helm of the organisation.
There are many who can teach about Dzogchen, but that is not the same as giving DI, without which I understand the lung transmissions are sterile.
Most of us have enough 'input' for a lifetime of 'process' and 'output' without Yeshi or another DC leader adding to it.

It is very sad for others, but if they do want another Master, maybe those who know about these things could provide links?
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Norwegian wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:07 pmThe ball is entirely in the court of the Dzogchen Community as an official body. They have to make clear and must make clear what their vision is, what the way forward is. No more waiting. No more keeping things within the four walls of tired bureaucracy.
Well, yes, if there are any directives. If there are none -- as seems to be the case -- then we need to decide the direction together. To do so, we need absolute clarity and transparency, plus as much respectful and well-informed discussing and debating as possible. And I do not mean gossiping or conspiring in the shadows. We need to do it the proper way.

A side note: people wonder about us talking such things through here. Well, the fact that we still do not have an official DC forum is just astonishing, given how technology-friendly the DC is.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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