Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Enochian wrote:Getting transmission, getting a guru, getting a lineage and getting samaya vows would only make me more conditioned.

It would take me AWAY from enlightenment.
It is because you have limited view of the meaning of guru,lineage and samaya that you think that. For me those words means vivid openness and freedom.

/magnus
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Sönam »

Enochian wrote:Getting transmission, getting a guru, getting a lineage and getting samaya vows would only make me more conditioned.

It would take me AWAY from enlightenment.
How is it possible to be taken away from enlightenment ? ... if not "already enlightened" it is useful as deconditioning tools (when correctely used)

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Elements

Post by DGA »

Enochian wrote: I thought this was a general buddhist forum?

Not just Vajrayana?

I am still a buddhist who takes refuge in the Triple Gems.
OK. If you don't mind, do you identify with any particular Buddhist tradition? practice with a sangha, or at least participate in one?
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Re: Elements

Post by Enochian »

.....
Last edited by Enochian on Mon May 16, 2011 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Enochian »

gnegirl wrote:Its kinda funny, 'cause even the direct-transmissions schools like Rinzai Zen require a Zen master to facilitate the process.

I understand this. But Dalai Lama himself gives 50% of it away when he says there is a discrepency between thoughtforms and reality. And this is in every nonrestricted book in the bookstore by him.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Enochian wrote:
gnegirl wrote:Its kinda funny, 'cause even the direct-transmissions schools like Rinzai Zen require a Zen master to facilitate the process.

I understand this. But Dalai Lama himself gives 50% of it away when he says there is a discrepency between thoughtforms and reality. And this is in every nonrestricted book in the bookstore by him.
You might have some idea about emptiness. But you don't understand Dzogchen at all.

N
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Re: Elements

Post by adinatha »

Enochian wrote:I take refuge in the Triple Gems. And I also have a Mahayana aspiration to obtain perfect omniscient Buddhahood as fast as possible to help infinite sentient beings.
I don't know... maybe you cigcarwa..
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by adinatha »

Enochian wrote:Getting transmission, getting a guru, getting a lineage and getting samaya vows would only make me more conditioned.

It would take me AWAY from enlightenment.
You seriously need to read "Old Man Basking in the Sun," and "Eye of the Storm," both by Keith Dowman, same translator for "Flight of the Garuda." Dowman gives commentaries in these that support your assertion. You are not alone in thinking this way.
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Enochian »

Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:
gnegirl wrote:Its kinda funny, 'cause even the direct-transmissions schools like Rinzai Zen require a Zen master to facilitate the process.

I understand this. But Dalai Lama himself gives 50% of it away when he says there is a discrepency between thoughtforms and reality. And this is in every nonrestricted book in the bookstore by him.
You might have some idea about emptiness. But you don't understand Dzogchen at all.

N

Why would I understand Dzogchen? I never had transmission.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Enochian wrote: Why would I understand Dzogchen? I never had transmission.
Then it is pointless for you to make any proclamations about it or imagine it is "limited" and so on.

N
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Enochian »

Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote: Why would I understand Dzogchen? I never had transmission.
Then it is pointless for you to make any proclamations about it or imagine it is "limited" and so on.

N


If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand Dzogchen, that means it is conditioned.

Thats just logic. Its nothing that I need to "imagine."
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by adinatha »

:popcorn: :pig:
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by gnegirl »

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
Oh, how I wish he’d go away

When I came home last night at three
The man was waiting there for me
But when I looked around the hall
I couldn’t see him there at all!
Go away, go away, don’t you come back any more!
Go away, go away, and please don’t slam the door

Last night I saw upon the stair
A little man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
Oh, how I wish he’d go away

"Antigonish" (1899)[2]

--William Hughes Mearns
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Mr. G »

Enochian wrote:Getting transmission, getting a guru, getting a lineage and getting samaya vows would only make me more conditioned.

It would take me AWAY from enlightenment.
Enochian wrote: If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand Dzogchen, that means it is conditioned.

Thats just logic. Its nothing that I need to "imagine."
From what you're saying, you think all that is conditioned is impure, but Vasubhandu in the Kosha writes:

4b-c. Conditioned dharmas, with the exception of the Path, are
impure

With the exception of the Path, all conditioned dharmas are
defiled.
  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by adinatha »

I think all he is saying is that conditioned is conditioned and unconditioned is unconditioned.
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Mr. G »

adinatha wrote:I think all he is saying is that conditioned is conditioned and unconditioned is unconditioned.
Oooh, I see. He was using the word "conditioned" as in an acquired behavior pattern?
  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Enochian »

Ok let me put it in another way.

If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand your natural state, it would NOT be natural would it?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Josef »

Enochian wrote:Ok let me put it in another way.

If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand your natural state, it would NOT be natural would it?
Not necessarily.
Plants need sunlight to grow. Pretty natural.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Enochian »

Nangwa wrote:
Enochian wrote:Ok let me put it in another way.

If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand your natural state, it would NOT be natural would it?
Not necessarily.
Plants need sunlight to grow. Pretty natural.

But Dzogchen explicitly says it is not a path of transformation.

You are describing transformation.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Enochian wrote: If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand Dzogchen, that means it is conditioned.
No, it just means that people are conditioned.

Dzogchen is a personal experience of one's actual state. For that you simply need someone who has that knowledge to show you the same. It is not something you will ever figure out on your own. That is your limitation, not the limitation of the teachings.

It is for example like a begger who uses a rock for a pillow, never dreaming that inside the rock is a precious diamond.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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