Acceptable ways of Transmissions (Lung, Jenang, Wang)

[Malcolm]

not to [be] open to innovations, what would be acceptable ways of given/receiving Transmissions according to the teachings?"

There are certain "innovations" that will destroy Vajrayāna teachings. So, it is necessary to exercise caution and apply scripture and reasoning to these issues. Things like receiving lungs and empowerments from recordings are unacceptable innovations. It's not really that hard to understand.

[oldbob]

Please read my last post carefully,

The words that are being attributed to me are actually from the OP in which they signify that they are not open to innovation. In my post these words are attributed to the OP and are in quotes.

That said, ChNN allowed as valid, Lungs (many, many times) and Worldwide Transmissions (many many times) - on the web that were sometimes delayed by 10+ minutes.

When the enlightened Jigme Lingpa took transmission from the Omniscient Longchenpa, this was delayed by 300+ years.

When a practitioner takes initiation from the 3 lights of a historical figure such as Guru Rinpoche the displacement in time could be over 1200 years. Yet no one questions the validity of this.

In each case the key point to make the Transmission / Lung work was the mutual attention and heart-felt faith of the sender and receiver over a duration of time.

Perhaps valid lineage holders of ChNN could be identified who can read along with a transcript of a recording of ChNN so as to allow a valid continuation of the Transmission Lineage of ChNN, using traditional means that were accepted by ChNN.

Working with circumstances means integrating and harmonizing old requirements with new technologies to allow valid transmission lineages to continue.

Please remember that Dzogchen is outside the limits of the 3 times and if we are within Dzogchen then time does not matter for transmission.

The key point is what turns the wheel – what advances the realization of practitioners.

[Malcolm]

That said, ChNN allowed as valid, Lungs (many, many times) and Worldwide Transmissions many many times - on the web that were sometimes delayed by 10+ minutes.

That’s a dumb argument Bob, since everyone was participating at the same time even if there was buffering.

[Aloke]

not to [be] open to innovations, what would be acceptable ways of given/receiving Transmissions according to the teachings?"

There are certain "innovations" that will destroy Vajrayāna teachings. So, it is necessary to exercise caution and apply scripture and reasoning to these issues. Things like receiving lungs and empowerments from recordings are unacceptable innovations. It's not really that hard to understand.

As Buddhists we should aspire for the Buddhas to keep turning the Wheel of Dharma. Our aspirations must be for the preservation of the teachings and transmissions as they are, and although we need to work with the circumstances of our time, certain innovations are really unacceptable.

As I said, I think that knowing what are the right ways of receiving transmissions and empowerments according to the original sources it is fundamental in this process. In fact, it is a need if we want to keep Vajrayana and Dzogchen Teachings as they really are and have been transmitted in this World.

[Aloke]

Oh ok, because of the substances. Which lineages
do have Yogini Jenangs? Thank you very much again!

The Bari Gyatsa. But it is usually given a whole collection. You might find some lama willing to give the separate jenang.

But you don't need, since you have Mandarava.

Malcolm, I asked if you please would elaborate a little bit about this because it may seem that having Mandarava would allow someone to practice Naro Kachod (as it is in Sakya and Gelug).

[Malcolm]

Malcolm, I asked if you please would elaborate a little bit about this because it may seem that having Mandarava would allow someone to practice Naro Kachod (as it is in Sakya and Gelug).

That's not what I meant. I meant that they are both dakini practices.

[Aloke]

Malcolm, I asked if you please would elaborate a little bit about this because it may seem that having Mandarava would allow someone to practice Naro Kachod (as it is in Sakya and Gelug).

That's not what I meant. I meant that they are both dakini practices.

I know. I think you meant that one Dakini practice would be enough.

But as we are talking exactly about undoing confusions and mistakes in the context of giving/receiving empowerments and transmissions it would be better to be clearer.

We know that both are Dakini practices. Mandarava is for sure a practice for total realization, but strongly associated with longevity. Vajrayogini Naro Kachod and Her 11 Yogas is another practice for total realization, a complete path and most known for excellent Siddhi, while others practices are more associated to common siddhis. Just to point out some differences, and to clarify that having received one of them one it's not automatically allowed to practice the other.

Thank you!

[Malcolm]

I think you meant that one Dakini practice would be enough.

Yes.

As far as Naro Khacho goes, one has to receive this according to how it is given in Sakya and Geluk.

[Pema Rigdzin]

When the enlightened Jigme Lingpa took transmission from the Omniscient Longchenpa, this was delayed by 300+ years.

When a practitioner takes initiation from the 3 lights of a historical figure such as Guru Rinpoche the displacement in time could be over 1200 years. Yet no one questions the validity of this.

Please remember that Dzogchen is outside the limits of the 3 times and if we are within Dzogchen then time does not matter for transmission.

Bob, Jigme Lingpa was said to experience an encounter with an appearance of Longchenpa—by then a buddha—who was interacting with him in that moment. Same with taking the empowerments during guru yoga—we are interacting with living buddhas in the moment of our participating in the practice. We’re not connecting with long gone figures.

And ChNN mentioned many, many times that receiving the Dzogchen transmission requires the master and the student being in the same state at the same time. You know very well that time does matter for the transmission.

[oldbob]

Sure, we are in time and time is passing. But this is our ordinary dualistic condition. If everyone has the seed of the Buddha nature, and the Buddha nature is beyond time, then in the fullness of time these seeds will all ripen.



So perhaps working with circumstances allows for the evolution of new forms of transmission.

Isn’t it better to allow for an integration of the old requirements of Empowerment, Reading Authorization and in-person explanation, Wang, Lung, and Tri to all be available in new forms that can adapt and thrive in the Covid / internet age?

Now “Authority” is granted for access to study and practice all of the “restricted teachings,” and the 100+ Secondary Practices, by the attendance at a 2 day seminar serving new-age minestrone with flute playing.

Following this, there are closed seminars of explanation by instructors – most of who have only received only the base level of one hour of Teacher Training.

Following this, there are seminars of recordings of past retreats – only available to those who have taken “transmission” but there is no assurance that any of those attending REALLY received the Direct experiential Transmission of Dzogchen.

Possession of a certificate of attendance is not the same thing as being placed in the state of Dzogchen transmission by a Dzogchen Master. Giving something the name of “Dzogchen Transmission” does not make that experience a real Dzogchen transmission.

Now a few of the “Instructors” compete for the available Zoom time slots, to teach a very few of the Secondary Practices to a very few newcomers who are content with this.

Many old practitioners go elsewhere.

Perhaps this is not ideal. Perhaps all of the Secondary Practices could be taught and preserved within new forms of Wang, Lung, and Tri.

Working with circumstances, maybe we can do better.

[Malcolm]

Many old practitioners go elsewhere.

It's the name of the game.

[Tata1]

Sure, we are in time and time is passing. But this is our ordinary dualistic condition. If everyone has the seed of the Buddha nature, and the Buddha nature is beyond time, then in the fullness of time these seeds will all ripen.



So perhaps working with circumstances allows for the evolution of new forms of transmission.

Isn’t it better to allow for an integration of the old requirements of Empowerment, Reading Authorization and in-person explanation, Wang, Lung, and Tri to all be available in new forms that can adapt and thrive in the Covid / internet age?

Now “Authority” is granted for access to study and practice all of the “restricted teachings,” and the 100+ Secondary Practices, by the attendance at a 2 day seminar serving new-age minestrone with flute playing.

Following this, there are closed seminars of explanation by instructors – most of who have only received only the base level of one hour of Teacher Training.

Following this, there are seminars of recordings of past retreats – only available to those who have taken “transmission” but there is no assurance that any of those attending REALLY received the Direct experiential Transmission of Dzogchen.

Possession of a certificate of attendance is not the same thing as being placed in the state of Dzogchen transmission by a Dzogchen Master. Giving something the name of “Dzogchen Transmission” does not make that experience a real Dzogchen transmission.

Now a few of the “Instructors” compete for the available Zoom time slots, to teach a very few of the Secondary Practices to a very few newcomers who are content with this.

Many old practitioners go elsewhere.

Perhaps this is not ideal. Perhaps all of the Secondary Practices could be taught and preserved within new forms of Wang, Lung, and Tri.

Working with circumstances, maybe we can do better.

This is not a DC thread bob. You need to respect other forum members and stop spamming this kind of thing everywhere. You already expressed your views SEVERAL times. Please stop doing this and slaming vajra brothers

[oldbob]

Actually, many of the ideas expressed in my last post were not expressed before. Also, the issues that are addressed are wider than those facing one Dharma Group. Also, please note that one Dharma group, or Teacher, is NOT mentioned by name.

Also:

https://www.techopedia.com/definition/23763/spamming

“Spamming is the use of electronic messaging systems like e-mails and other digital delivery systems and broadcast media to send unwanted bulk messages indiscriminately. The term spamming is also applied to other media like in internet forums, instant messaging, and mobile text messaging, social networking spam, junk fax transmissions, television advertising and sharing network spam.”

In my last post, I am specifically responding to the previous poster's comment about being in time and addressing specific issues about transmission that are of interest to all practitioners of Dzogchen.

This is a generic posting addressing issues facing all Dzogchen Dharma groups at this time.

Since the original OP’s question addresses what acceptable transmission is, it seemed appropriate to address this issue here and invite a continuing discussion of the issues.

If anyone does not like what I am saying, they are free not to read my post. I apologize if anyone is offended.

Characterizing my posts as “spamming” or “slamming vajra brothers” gives the appearance of a politically motivated attempt to limit any discussion of important issues facing the transmission of Dzogchen in the future.

Of course, we should all respect the Moderators opinion as to what is appropriate for discussion on Dharma Wheel.

Most sincerely, oldbob

[PeterC]

In my last post, I am specifically responding to the previous poster's comment about being in time and addressing specific issues about transmission that are of interest to all practitioners of Dzogchen.

This is a generic posting addressing issues facing all Dzogchen Dharma groups at this time.

Perhaps, but since you’re referring to “base level”, “secondary practices”, etc. it sure does sound like you’re talking about the DC again

Characterizing my posts as “spamming” or “slamming vajra brothers” gives the appearance of a politically motivated attempt to limit any discussion of important issues facing the transmission of Dzogchen in the future.

I just get the feeling that you’re saying the same things, at great length, about the DC over and over again. I agree with some of them. I disagree with others. But we’ve heard it many times already, so it’s probably not necessary to repeat them.

[Passing By]

Question, what about Tri?

Generally speaking for most lamas, Empowerment/Introduction and Lung are live but what about Tri? Do practice instructions/ teachings and answers to questions have to be live as well?