Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

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KonchogUrgyenNyima
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Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Hello,

I am receiving what my lama called a text empowerment or pe-wang (which is short for pecha wang i assume?) for a khandro nyingthig text by terdak lingpa.

I am looking for two things:

1. what does a text empowerment mean? Does it authorize one to practice? To study the text? What are the general “rules” about this kind of thing in the vajrayana? I have never gotten a text wang before.

2. Which texts has Terdak Lingpa written on the Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig? I’m trying to figure out which text i’m getting the empowerment for, and whether or not it is translated into english.

I’m turning to dharmawheel because i’ve tried to get these answers from my lama himself, but i fear our language barrier is complicating things and i don’t want to bother him with a bunch of questions while in the presence of such a precious empowerment.
Malcolm
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by Malcolm »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:37 am Hello,

I am receiving what my lama called a text empowerment or pe-wang (which is short for pecha wang i assume?) for a khandro nyingthig text by terdak lingpa.

I am looking for two things:

1. what does a text empowerment mean? Does it authorize one to practice? To study the text? What are the general “rules” about this kind of thing in the vajrayana? I have never gotten a text wang before.

2. Which texts has Terdak Lingpa written on the Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig? I’m trying to figure out which text i’m getting the empowerment for, and whether or not it is translated into english.

I’m turning to dharmawheel because i’ve tried to get these answers from my lama himself, but i fear our language barrier is complicating things and i don’t want to bother him with a bunch of questions while in the presence of such a precious empowerment.
To read and study.

A text on the uncommon practices, one only AFAIK.
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:38 am
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:37 am Hello,

I am receiving what my lama called a text empowerment or pe-wang (which is short for pecha wang i assume?) for a khandro nyingthig text by terdak lingpa.

I am looking for two things:

1. what does a text empowerment mean? Does it authorize one to practice? To study the text? What are the general “rules” about this kind of thing in the vajrayana? I have never gotten a text wang before.

2. Which texts has Terdak Lingpa written on the Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig? I’m trying to figure out which text i’m getting the empowerment for, and whether or not it is translated into english.

I’m turning to dharmawheel because i’ve tried to get these answers from my lama himself, but i fear our language barrier is complicating things and i don’t want to bother him with a bunch of questions while in the presence of such a precious empowerment.
To read and study.

A text on the uncommon practices, one only AFAIK.
Thanks Malcolm. Is that uncommon ngondro practices?
Malcolm
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by Malcolm »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:52 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:38 am
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:37 am Hello,

I am receiving what my lama called a text empowerment or pe-wang (which is short for pecha wang i assume?) for a khandro nyingthig text by terdak lingpa.

I am looking for two things:

1. what does a text empowerment mean? Does it authorize one to practice? To study the text? What are the general “rules” about this kind of thing in the vajrayana? I have never gotten a text wang before.

2. Which texts has Terdak Lingpa written on the Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig? I’m trying to figure out which text i’m getting the empowerment for, and whether or not it is translated into english.

I’m turning to dharmawheel because i’ve tried to get these answers from my lama himself, but i fear our language barrier is complicating things and i don’t want to bother him with a bunch of questions while in the presence of such a precious empowerment.
To read and study.

A text on the uncommon practices, one only AFAIK.
Thanks Malcolm. Is that uncommon ngondro practices?
Yes, as well as trekcho, etc.
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:04 am
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:52 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:38 am

To read and study.

A text on the uncommon practices, one only AFAIK.
Thanks Malcolm. Is that uncommon ngondro practices?
Yes, as well as trekcho, etc.
Oh and do you know if this is translated into english?
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:04 am
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:52 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:38 am

To read and study.

A text on the uncommon practices, one only AFAIK.
Thanks Malcolm. Is that uncommon ngondro practices?
Yes, as well as trekcho, etc.
Also is this called “illuminating the profound path” or some approximation of this in tibetan?
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by Yungdrung Gyalpo »

There actually is a practice manual for the Khandro Nyingthik by Terdak Lingpa. Vol. Cha [6] of his complete writings (16 vol., 1998, Dehra Dun, TBRC W2200), p. 216-267 – plus some secondary texts (lineage prayer, which is, by the way, extremely interesting, as the first [main] lineage through Yungtönpa Dorjepal and Karmapa Rölpai Dorjé, not through Longchenpa, and the lineage through Longchenpa is just presented next).

And yes it is called Zablam Selje, Illuminating the Profound Path. Looks like a miniature version of Longchenpa's A Cloud from the Ocean of the Profound Meaning (Zabdön Gyamtsö Trin).
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Wow that is really interesting. I heard of some other nyingthig (perhaps sometimes counted in with the yabshi?) which was discovered by a karmapa. Maybe it is the same karmapa?

Thanks for your clarifying info my friend!
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by heart »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:09 pm Wow that is really interesting. I heard of some other nyingthig (perhaps sometimes counted in with the yabshi?) which was discovered by a karmapa. Maybe it is the same karmapa?

Thanks for your clarifying info my friend!
No that is Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, the Karma Nyingtik.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

heart wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:32 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:09 pm Wow that is really interesting. I heard of some other nyingthig (perhaps sometimes counted in with the yabshi?) which was discovered by a karmapa. Maybe it is the same karmapa?

Thanks for your clarifying info my friend!
No that is Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, the Karma Nyingtik.

/magnus
Understood. So many mysteries among us.
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Yungdrung Gyalpo wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:33 am There actually is a practice manual for the Khandro Nyingthik by Terdak Lingpa. Vol. Cha [6] of his complete writings (16 vol., 1998, Dehra Dun, TBRC W2200), p. 216-267 – plus some secondary texts (lineage prayer, which is, by the way, extremely interesting, as the first [main] lineage through Yungtönpa Dorjepal and Karmapa Rölpai Dorjé, not through Longchenpa, and the lineage through Longchenpa is just presented next).

And yes it is called Zablam Selje, Illuminating the Profound Path. Looks like a miniature version of Longchenpa's A Cloud from the Ocean of the Profound Meaning (Zabdön Gyamtsö Trin).
So i’m fairly certain this is the text i’m being empowered for. Now i’m wondering about an english translation. Do you (or anyone else here) know if there is one? A french or spanish one would be okay too.

The introduction to the second volume Cortland Dahl’s translation of https://learning.tergar.org/wp-content ... hrough.pdf The Excellent Chariot, seems to include this “Illuminating the Profound Path”. Can anyone confirm this? I read the whole introduction and it seems to be the case, i just would love to know for sure that it’s the same text.
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by Yungdrung Gyalpo »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:39 pmThe introduction to the second volume Cortland Dahl’s translation of https://learning.tergar.org/wp-content ... hrough.pdf The Excellent Chariot, seems to include this “Illuminating the Profound Path”. Can anyone confirm this? I read the whole introduction and it seems to be the case, i just would love to know for sure that it’s the same text.
I had never seen this volume and I cannot say what is beyond this preface, but what is sure is that the text by Terdak Lingpa it mentions is definitely the one that interests you. In case you could not get a translation of just that one, as a second choice, I think that this "pewang" would more or less authorize tou to study other Khandro Nyingthik practice manuals, because they are extremely similar to one another. In many cases, when masters write these type of manuals, it is as if they were writing for themselves, to remember precisely the instructions, or just putting together notes they have taken from the previous tradition: they do not add much of their own insights. This one might well, though, be partly based upon the one by Karmapa III Ranjung Dorje, which is prior to Longchenpa's super-extensive Zab don rgya mtsho'i sprin. Which, incidentally, is definitely one of Longchenpa's masterpieces, at least of the same level and value than his most well-known writings.
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by Yungdrung Gyalpo »

heart wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:32 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:09 pm Wow that is really interesting. I heard of some other nyingthig (perhaps sometimes counted in with the yabshi?) which was discovered by a karmapa. Maybe it is the same karmapa?

Thanks for your clarifying info my friend!
No that is Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, the Karma Nyingtik.

/magnus
There is no such thing as a «Karma Nyingthik» that would be really different from the two Nyingthiks (Bima- and Khandro-).

Karmapa III Rangjung Dorje actually received the Bima Nyingthik from Kumarâdza and the Khandro Nyingthik from the tertön, Pema Ledreltsel.

The so-called «Karma Nyingthik» is just a lineage of the two Nyingthiks that once existed in the Karma Kagyü school, and surely still exists, though maybe not that much as a strong autonomous tradition (I mean, I do not think that they rely only on their own texts and reject Longchenpa's commentaries – knowing the Tibetans, the two lines must have merged long ago, at least as regards the texts; but as I have no Kagyüpa scholarly connections, I cannot ask about what has become of this lineage).

There is a vague legend (not confirmed, see Ruth Gamble, etc.) that Karmapa III Rangjung Dorje may have had Dzogchen termas, but, concretely, this means either a yangter of parts or the whole Khandro Nyingthik, or just some additional texts (not preserved, it seems). As I have carefully checked all the colophons of the Nyingthik Yazhi, I can tell you that these texts, if they ever existed, are lost. I think in fact that it is either a misunderstanding of some Tibetan historians, or a yangter, just refreshing the lineage, not bringing up any additional materials.

What I was meaning is that there are actually a few texts by Karmapa III Rangjung Dorje (one practice manual, more or less 100 p. if I remember well, plus a few ritual texts for the empowerments) that are included in the Khandro Nyingthik. This is a small section within the Nyingthik Yazhi as it is transmitted nowadays.
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

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Yungdrung Gyalpo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:15 am
heart wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:32 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:09 pm Wow that is really interesting. I heard of some other nyingthig (perhaps sometimes counted in with the yabshi?) which was discovered by a karmapa. Maybe it is the same karmapa?

Thanks for your clarifying info my friend!
No that is Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, the Karma Nyingtik.

/magnus
There is no such thing as a «Karma Nyingthik» that would be really different from the two Nyingthiks (Bima- and Khandro-).

Karmapa III Rangjung Dorje actually received the Bima Nyingthik from Kumarâdza and the Khandro Nyingthik from the tertön, Pema Ledreltsel.

The so-called «Karma Nyingthik» is just a lineage of the two Nyingthiks that once existed in the Karma Kagyü school, and surely still exists, though maybe not that much as a strong autonomous tradition (I mean, I do not think that they rely only on their own texts and reject Longchenpa's commentaries – knowing the Tibetans, the two lines must have merged long ago, at least as regards the texts; but as I have no Kagyüpa scholarly connections, I cannot ask about what has become of this lineage).

There is a vague legend (not confirmed, see Ruth Gamble, etc.) that Karmapa III Rangjung Dorje may have had Dzogchen termas, but, concretely, this means either a yangter of parts or the whole Khandro Nyingthik, or just some additional texts (not preserved, it seems). As I have carefully checked all the colophons of the Nyingthik Yazhi, I can tell you that these texts, if they ever existed, are lost. I think in fact that it is either a misunderstanding of some Tibetan historians, or a yangter, just refreshing the lineage, not bringing up any additional materials.

What I was meaning is that there are actually a few texts by Karmapa III Rangjung Dorje (one practice manual, more or less 100 p. if I remember well, plus a few ritual texts for the empowerments) that are included in the Khandro Nyingthik. This is a small section within the Nyingthik Yazhi as it is transmitted nowadays.
No, it's actually Karmapa Rangjung Dorje's Dzogchen terma.

Nalanda translations: " Karmapa Rangjung Dorje’s terma, Marvelous Guide to Actual Practice (Karma Nyingtik)"

https://www.nalandatranslation.org/publ ... ning-more/

There are as you know many cycles and teachings with the name Nyingtik, Longchen Nyingtik, Chetsun Nyingtik and so on.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by Malcolm »

Yungdrung Gyalpo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:15 am
heart wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:32 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:09 pm Wow that is really interesting. I heard of some other nyingthig (perhaps sometimes counted in with the yabshi?) which was discovered by a karmapa. Maybe it is the same karmapa?

Thanks for your clarifying info my friend!
No that is Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, the Karma Nyingtik.

/magnus
There is no such thing as a «Karma Nyingthik» that would be really different from the two Nyingthiks (Bima- and Khandro-).

It is a Vimalamitra Guru Yoga, basically, connected with the Vima Nyinthik.
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:34 pm
Yungdrung Gyalpo wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:15 am
heart wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:32 pm

No that is Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, the Karma Nyingtik.

/magnus
There is no such thing as a «Karma Nyingthik» that would be really different from the two Nyingthiks (Bima- and Khandro-).

It is a Vimalamitra Guru Yoga, basically, connected with the Vima Nyinthik.
There are Dzogchen instructions in the translation from Nalanda.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by mutsuk »

Not at all. It is not a guru-yoga nor a cycle but a very well-known single text entitled Nyams len lag khrigs ma'i khrid ngo mtshar can and nicknamed Karma Nyingthik. It is included in the Bima Nyingthik (vol. 4) and in the Sungbum of the 3rd Karmapa. It's man-ngag-sde text, covering preliminaries, khregs-chod, thod-rgal, and so forth. Heart is right.
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by Malcolm »

mutsuk wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:45 pm Not at all. It is not a guru-yoga nor a cycle but a very well-known single text entitled Nyams len lag khrigs ma'i khrid ngo mtshar can and nicknamed Karma Nyingthik. It is included in the Bima Nyingthik (vol. 4) and in the Sungbum of the 3rd Karmapa.
Yes, I had thought I had once seen a text of such a guru yoga, but perhaps I was recalling this line:


བི་མས་རྒྱལ་དབང་ཀརྨ་པ་རང་བྱུང་རྡོ་རྗེ་མངོན་སུམ་བྱིན་གྱིས་བརླབས་ནས་དགོངས་གཏེར་དུ་བསྩལ་བ་ཀརྨ་སྙིང་ཐིག་གོ

"Vimala, having blessed the Gyalwang Karmapa Rangjung Dorje in person, bestowed the mind treasure, the Karma Nyingthik.
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by Yungdrung Gyalpo »

mutsuk wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:45 pm Not at all. It is not a guru-yoga nor a cycle but a very well-known single text entitled Nyams len lag khrigs ma'i khrid ngo mtshar can and nicknamed Karma Nyingthik. It is included in the Bima Nyingthik (vol. 4) and in the Sungbum of the 3rd Karmapa. It's man-ngag-sde text, covering preliminaries, khregs-chod, thod-rgal, and so forth. Heart is right.
You are right, I mistakenly put this one in the Khandro Nyingthik, while it is, as you say, in the Bima Nyingthik. I should have checked and not trusted my memory.

But here are the 2 texts of the Khandro Nyingthik I was thinking about :

1. Shin tu spros med kyi dbang - Composed by Karmapa Rangjung Dorje by combining the text of dGa’ rab rdo rje and the complements (rgyab yig) of Vimalamitra. -https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_View ... 7CW1KG4884
2. Rab tu spros med kyi dbang - Composed by Karmapa Rangjung Dorje by combining the text of dGa'-rab rdo-rje and the complements (rgyab yig) of the lineage masters. - https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_View ... 7CW1KG4884

So am I wrong to say that the so-called Karma snying thig is nothing different from the Bima- and Khandro- Nyingthiks as transmitted in the Karma Kagyü school?

I mean, these two texts do not belong to the Karma snying thig ? I have no Kagyüpa connections, so I really have no clue.

There is also another small text by Rangjung Dorje in the Bima nyingthik.

Anyway, I was wrong, sorry, except on the main point, I mean, that the Karma Nyingthik is not at all an independent, terma cycle of Dzogchen, but just Rangjung Dorje's explanations of the well-known Nyingthik(s).
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Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???

Post by mutsuk »

The Karma Nyingthik is not a cycle, it is a single text entitled Nyams len lag khrigs ma'i khrid ngo mtshar can.
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