Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

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Passing By
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Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

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Are there any differences in rushens between Bon and Nyingma, with respect to method and result? In the former the main component are exercises designed to give yourself direct introduction to the nature of mind until one is familiar enough to proceed to trekchod. Is Nyingma rushen goal the same or are they not "crossable" so to speak (ie, doing Bon rushen does not give the same result as Nyingma one)?
Malcolm
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:24 pm Are there any differences in rushens between Bon and Nyingma, with respect to method and result? In the former the main component are exercises designed to give yourself direct introduction to the nature of mind until one is familiar enough to proceed to trekchod. Is Nyingma rushen goal the same or are they not "crossable" so to speak (ie, doing Bon rushen does not give the same result as Nyingma one)?
In the Nyingthig tradition, rushans are the preliminary practice for thogal and enhancement practices for trekcho. For discovering trekcho, the Nyinthig tradition primarily recommends the use of semzins, like the Song of the Vajra and so on.
Passing By
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

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I see thanks,

Then in Nyingthig, do the semzins for discovering trekcho also accomplish the closing of doors to the 6 realms of samsara or is that purely a rushen thing only?
Malcolm
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:14 am I see thanks,

Then in Nyingthig, do the semzins for discovering trekcho also accomplish the closing of doors to the 6 realms of samsara or is that purely a rushen thing only?
No.Yes.
Passing By
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

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Interesting, so technically, if one has not done rushans in Nyingthik but has been doing semzins and trekcho, they could still return to the 6 lokas instead of the minimum nirmanakaya pure land? Even though trekcho is theoretically instantaneous seeing of the fruit and realization at time of death before the lights appear in the dharmata bardo?
Malcolm
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:26 am Interesting, so technically, if one has not done rushans in Nyingthik but has been doing semzins and trekcho, they could still return to the 6 lokas instead of the minimum nirmanakaya pure land? Even though trekcho is theoretically instantaneous seeing of the fruit and realization at time of death before the lights appear in the dharmata bardo?
Rushans are also not a guarantee unless you have received signs of accomplishment.
Passing By
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

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Malcolm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:20 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:26 am Interesting, so technically, if one has not done rushans in Nyingthik but has been doing semzins and trekcho, they could still return to the 6 lokas instead of the minimum nirmanakaya pure land? Even though trekcho is theoretically instantaneous seeing of the fruit and realization at time of death before the lights appear in the dharmata bardo?
Rushans are also not a guarantee unless you have received signs of accomplishment.

And trekcho's success depends whether one can hold it when they fall unconscious the moment they die yes? While kyerim/dzogrim depends on if they remember the lights are yidam's display (or is that thogal only while the result of two stages is something else?)
Malcolm
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:45 pm
And trekcho's success depends whether one can hold it when they fall unconscious the moment they die yes?
You mean liberation?
While kyerim/dzogrim depends on if they remember the lights are yidam's display (or is that thogal only while the result of two stages is something else?)
I don't know how Bonpos explain the two stages in relation to the process of death.

As for the bardo of dharmatā, one should recognize sounds, lights, and rays.
Passing By
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

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Malcolm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:20 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:45 pm
And trekcho's success depends whether one can hold it when they fall unconscious the moment they die yes?
You mean liberation?
While kyerim/dzogrim depends on if they remember the lights are yidam's display (or is that thogal only while the result of two stages is something else?)
I don't know how Bonpos explain the two stages in relation to the process of death.

As for the bardo of dharmatā, one should recognize sounds, lights, and rays.

Liberation, yes. Or does trekcho also allow one to enter nirmanakaya fields, (or the very least, to continue practice in the next life with the whole standard liberation in 7 life times vajrayana promise) should one's stability in it not be able to withstand the trauma of dying? I always had the impression trekcho is an all or nothing thing. Either you maintain it and are liberated as Kuntuzangpo when the time comes or you don't and off you go to your next life, for better or worse. Is that the case?


Yidam two stages in bardo of dharmata in Bon is practically the same as in other Buddhist schools as far as I have been exposed to. IE, recognize sound, lights and rays as the deity (your own natural state's) manifestations. The question I was trying to ask was mainly whether deity yoga (namely standard kyerim and dissolution) allows one to do this in the dharmata bardo or does the ability to recognize this comes only with practising thogal?
Malcolm
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:36 pm
Liberation, yes. Or does trekcho also allow one to enter nirmanakaya fields, (or the very least, to continue practice in the next life with the whole standard liberation in 7 life times vajrayana promise) should one's stability in it not be able to withstand the trauma of dying? I always had the impression trekcho is an all or nothing thing. Either you maintain it and are liberated as Kuntuzangpo when the time comes or you don't and off you go to your next life, for better or worse. Is that the case?
You cannot practice trekcho if you have not decided upon one thing. If you have, then generally you should attain liberation in the bardo of the time of death.
does the ability to recognize this comes only with practising thogal?
As far as I understand things, yes.
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

Post by Danny »

Passing By wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:36 pm

Yidam two stages in bardo of dharmata in Bon is practically the same as in other Buddhist schools as far as I have been exposed to. (SNIP)...... this comes only with practising thogal?
Well, you might find some subtle instruction
Upadeshas, either in a few sentences of literature or a working method, that are interesting, but the basic blueprint is virtually the same, as far as I can tell.
So far I’ve not come across anything that is divergent in understanding. But I want to be clear here, I’m not Bonpo.
But respect that ancient way. Others may say I’m not even a Buddhist... well that’s their judgements and not mine.
Passing By
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

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Malcolm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:51 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:36 pm
Liberation, yes. Or does trekcho also allow one to enter nirmanakaya fields, (or the very least, to continue practice in the next life with the whole standard liberation in 7 life times vajrayana promise) should one's stability in it not be able to withstand the trauma of dying? I always had the impression trekcho is an all or nothing thing. Either you maintain it and are liberated as Kuntuzangpo when the time comes or you don't and off you go to your next life, for better or worse. Is that the case?
You cannot practice trekcho if you have not decided upon one thing. If you have, then generally you should attain liberation in the bardo of the time of death.
does the ability to recognize this comes only with practising thogal?
As far as I understand things, yes.
Right, thanks.


Then from Dzogchen POV, what actually happens in the bardo to deity yoga practitioners who nevertheless, have not done any thogal? Where do they wind up? Or is fully accomplishing a deity the same as "deciding upon one thing" anyway?
Malcolm
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:38 pm
Then from Dzogchen POV, what actually happens in the bardo to deity yoga practitioners who nevertheless, have not done any thogal? Where do they wind up?
This is called sambhogakāya phowa, it indirectly means the same thing as liberation in the bardo of dharmatā.
Passing By
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

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Malcolm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:51 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:36 pm
Liberation, yes. Or does trekcho also allow one to enter nirmanakaya fields, (or the very least, to continue practice in the next life with the whole standard liberation in 7 life times vajrayana promise) should one's stability in it not be able to withstand the trauma of dying? I always had the impression trekcho is an all or nothing thing. Either you maintain it and are liberated as Kuntuzangpo when the time comes or you don't and off you go to your next life, for better or worse. Is that the case?
You cannot practice trekcho if you have not decided upon one thing. If you have, then generally you should attain liberation in the bardo of the time of death.
And this decision is purely deciding with certainty on the knowledge of the actual nature of things yes? Is this literally just as simple as having experiential knowledge of trekcho via a direct introduction/semzin/ guru yoga?

Lamas all say this is not a state to be maintained nor is it an object of cognition, and the 4 chogshag instructions echo this but of course while you take things more easily in your response to adverse situations, enjoying whatever arises etc, you are still subject to the laws of physics, people who push far enough can annoy you, in periods of stress, even if you mentally are not overwhelmed thanks to practice, your body still reflexively gives rise to somatic manifestations like anxiety responses etc. Your own personal characteristics such as likes and dislikes, personality etc still manifest....Yet once you see and know the clear light Nature, there isn't anything left to do after that is there since they are all manifestations of one's Nature

But in that case, what does the commonly encountered phrase "stability in trekchod" mean? Knowledge is an either you know or you don't thing so what stability is there to maintain? And when the knowledge becomes obscured, it's actually not that difficult to apply the pointing out instructions to reinforce it again....so, just like that, without relatively much effort, is sufficient for what is generally held to be the highest form of trikaya phowa short of full out rainbow body?
Malcolm
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:31 am
And this decision is purely deciding with certainty on the knowledge of the actual nature of things yes? Is this literally just as simple as having experiential knowledge of trekcho via a direct introduction/semzin/ guru yoga?
Yes, and maintaining that.


But in that case, what does the commonly encountered phrase "stability in trekchod" mean? Knowledge is an either you know or you don't thing so what stability is there to maintain?
Not being distracted from that knowledge.
And when the knowledge becomes obscured, it's actually not that difficult to apply the pointing out instructions to reinforce it again....so, just like that, without relatively much effort, is sufficient for what is generally held to be the highest form of trikaya phowa short of full out rainbow body?
Yes.
Passing By
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Re: Rushen in Bon and Nyingma

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 3:23 pm
Passing By wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:31 am
And this decision is purely deciding with certainty on the knowledge of the actual nature of things yes? Is this literally just as simple as having experiential knowledge of trekcho via a direct introduction/semzin/ guru yoga?
Yes, and maintaining that.


But in that case, what does the commonly encountered phrase "stability in trekchod" mean? Knowledge is an either you know or you don't thing so what stability is there to maintain?
Not being distracted from that knowledge.
And when the knowledge becomes obscured, it's actually not that difficult to apply the pointing out instructions to reinforce it again....so, just like that, without relatively much effort, is sufficient for what is generally held to be the highest form of trikaya phowa short of full out rainbow body?
Yes.

Clear thanks.

Anyway, it seems Nyingthik also has mind rushans that are similar to the Bon ones in practice and function (ie, direct introduction to oneself). Why is the Nyingthik one differentiated from the semzins within its system though? They are very similar....
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