Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
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Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
Something I've wondered for some time now. Is there actually any practical difference whatsoever between generating yourself as whatever yidam you practice, doing the mantra recitation/ trondeu etc then dissolving and resting as best as you can in trekchod/ the natural state and the Guru Yoga practices where you supplicate and visualize receiving the four empowerments then also dissolving and resting in the natural state?
It seems no, going by what Garchen Rinpoche says but then in Dzogchen, Guru Yoga is always emphasized as the essence of everything up to and including upadesha practices. Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?
(and no....I'm not trying to start another debate here of whether yidam practice is essential for Dzogchen or not....The question is more of can yidam be used as an Ati Guru Yoga? After all, Padmasambhava/ Kilaya/ Taphiritsa etc are also yidams as well as guru figures.)
It seems no, going by what Garchen Rinpoche says but then in Dzogchen, Guru Yoga is always emphasized as the essence of everything up to and including upadesha practices. Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?
(and no....I'm not trying to start another debate here of whether yidam practice is essential for Dzogchen or not....The question is more of can yidam be used as an Ati Guru Yoga? After all, Padmasambhava/ Kilaya/ Taphiritsa etc are also yidams as well as guru figures.)
- treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
No difference whatsoever. Actually, yidam practice would be a form of Guru Yoga (at least in the inner tantras), as ChNN, HEGR and others have explicitly stated (if you are a DC person, see the Jnanadakini Thukthik books or Gomadevi Practice Retreat).Passing By wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pmSomething I've wondered for some time now. Is there actually any practical difference whatsoever between generating yourself as whatever yidam you practice, doing the mantra recitation/ trondeu etc then dissolving and resting as best as you can in trekchod/ the natural state and the Guru Yoga practices where you supplicate and visualize receiving the four empowerments then also dissolving and resting in the natural state?
It seems no, going by what Garchen Rinpoche says but then in Dzogchen, Guru Yoga is always emphasized as the essence of everything up to and including upadesha practices. Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?
(and no....I'm not trying to start another debate here of whether yidam practice is essential for Dzogchen or not....The question is more of can yidam be used as an Ati Guru Yoga? After all, Padmasambhava/ Kilaya/ Taphiritsa etc are also yidams as well as guru figures.)
They are different ritual genres, though.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.
Edmond Jabès
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.
Edmond Jabès
Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
There's a famous story I believe it was Marpa learning from Naropa and Naropa manifested the Hevajra mandala visibly in front of Marpa. Then he asked Marpa who should he prostrate to, and Marpa prostrated to the mandala. Naropa then chided him that the guru is the source of the mandala and prophecied his family lineage would not amount to much but his dharma lineage would be great.
Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
In this case Dzogchen becomes a kind of completion stage, which it pretty much is anyway.Passing By wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?
Virgo
Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
Passing By wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm .............
.......
After all, Padmasambhava/ Kilaya/ Taphiritsa etc are also yidams as well as guru figures.)
Never heard of a Tapihritsa self-visualisation like a yidam-sadhana
Lost In Transmission
Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
It's impossible to 'rudra yourself' with guru yoga.
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
Whoops, meant Drenpa Namkha. But anyway, Tapihritsa still merges with you at the end of his guru yoga so it still winds up like thatlelopa wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:32 amPassing By wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm .............
.......
After all, Padmasambhava/ Kilaya/ Taphiritsa etc are also yidams as well as guru figures.)
Never heard of a Tapihritsa self-visualisation like a yidam-sadhana
Right, thanks for the clarificationtreehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:37 pm
No difference whatsoever. Actually, yidam practice would be a form of Guru Yoga (at least in the inner tantras), as ChNN, HEGR and others have explicitly stated (if you are a DC person, see the Jnanadakini Thukthik books or Gomadevi Practice Retreat).
They are different ritual genres, though.
What does that actually entail anyway? Falling into a rudra state I mean. The story is famous and all but why does guru yoga not carry that risk since technically someone could still abuse it no?
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
Thanks. That couldn’t be any clearer.pemachophel wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Still, I wish I understood it.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
Once upon a time there was a place called Vajrayanaville they did mantras. They did mantras of all kinds. And they visualized. Whoa... For real you can imagine things? Yes. They invented that.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:12 amThanks. That couldn’t be any clearer.pemachophel wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Still, I wish I understood it.
One day a little mountain man who grunted sounds with his monkey friends went down to Vajrayanaville and learned words. Then he learned mantras and imagination. He was taught to think about pictures.
Once he realized he'd left his grunting wife and kids to die in the snow he went home. He taught them all that he knew.
Then his children were so amazed by words they made more words and really let their imaginations be free. We can imagine anything!
But then they formed teams of who had the better imaginations. Wars broke out. Monkeys died. The squeals scared the pigs. Almost no everyone stopped using imaginations.
One day a very clever man saw an opportunity. Why use imagination when we can just make bullshit lists? I will take command of the armies of the world with lists of that make no difference or mean anything!
And the monkey mountain men loved it. You can make poems. You can sound smart. You can quote portions in other lists of monkey grunts and sound smarter then the first smart guy.
But the war went on too long. They begged a wiseman from Vajrayanaville to come and broker peace. He heard all sides. They won't stop bickering over trifling points.
Then he asked what was the point of life? They said, enlightenment. How do you get it? Buddha's teaching. Where is the best teaching? Tantras. Tantra is what? Mantra. Mantra has how many sides?
Ooooooo
Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
Guru is the yidam. Siddhis come from kyerim. Activities are for those accomplished; they call it dzogrim.pemachophel wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
- Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
Is this the kagyu view, while Lama Pema presented the nyingma view of the topic?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:45 amGuru is the yidam. Siddhis come from kyerim. Activities are for those accomplished; they call it dzogrim.pemachophel wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
Aside from the general tone, I have no idea what point you're trying to make.Once upon a time there was a place called Vajrayanaville they did mantras. They did mantras of all kinds. And they visualized. Whoa... For real you can imagine things? Yes. They invented that.
One day a little mountain man who grunted sounds with his monkey friends went down to Vajrayanaville and learned words. Then he learned mantras and imagination. He was taught to think about pictures.
Once he realized he'd left his grunting wife and kids to die in the snow he went home. He taught them all that he knew.
Then his children were so amazed by words they made more words and really let their imaginations be free. We can imagine anything!
But then they formed teams of who had the better imaginations. Wars broke out. Monkeys died. The squeals scared the pigs. Almost no everyone stopped using imaginations.
One day a very clever man saw an opportunity. Why use imagination when we can just make bullshit lists? I will take command of the armies of the world with lists of that make no difference or mean anything!
And the monkey mountain men loved it. You can make poems. You can sound smart. You can quote portions in other lists of monkey grunts and sound smarter then the first smart guy.
But the war went on too long. They begged a wiseman from Vajrayanaville to come and broker peace. He heard all sides. They won't stop bickering over trifling points.
Then he asked what was the point of life? They said, enlightenment. How do you get it? Buddha's teaching. Where is the best teaching? Tantras. Tantra is what? Mantra. Mantra has how many sides?
Ooooooo
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
In Dzogchen, the guru, the yidam, and the ḍākinī are the basis, and nothing else. The guru is the essence, original purity; the yidam is the nature, natural purity; and the ḍākinī is their inseparability, compassion.Passing By wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm
...Dzogchen, Guru Yoga is always emphasized as the essence of everything up to and including upadesha practices. Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
My understanding is also poor but perhaps mandala offerings would help? Have heard that it can help people gain better understandingSchrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:12 amThanks. That couldn’t be any clearer.pemachophel wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Still, I wish I understood it.
KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
So, in other words, as long as one is working with the thigle nyagchig, regardless of what method is being used, it is guru yoga as far as Dzogchen is concerned, whether the practice nominally has a guru figure, deity or dakini associated with it?Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:59 pmIn Dzogchen, the guru, the yidam, and the ḍākinī are the basis, and nothing else. The guru is the essence, original purity; the yidam is the nature, natural purity; and the ḍākinī is their inseparability, compassion.Passing By wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm
...Dzogchen, Guru Yoga is always emphasized as the essence of everything up to and including upadesha practices. Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?
Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
GuhyagarbhaKönchok Thrinley wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:16 pmIs this the kagyu view, while Lama Pema presented the nyingma view of the topic?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:45 amGuru is the yidam. Siddhis come from kyerim. Activities are for those accomplished; they call it dzogrim.pemachophel wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
In Dzogchen, the guru, yidam, and ḍākinī is rigpa.Passing By wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:33 pmSo, in other words, as long as one is working with the thigle nyagchig, regardless of what method is being used, it is guru yoga as far as Dzogchen is concerned, whether the practice nominally has a guru figure, deity or dakini associated with it?Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:59 pmIn Dzogchen, the guru, the yidam, and the ḍākinī are the basis, and nothing else. The guru is the essence, original purity; the yidam is the nature, natural purity; and the ḍākinī is their inseparability, compassion.Passing By wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm
...Dzogchen, Guru Yoga is always emphasized as the essence of everything up to and including upadesha practices. Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga
Right, that is clear, thanksMalcolm wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:00 pmIn Dzogchen, the guru, yidam, and ḍākinī is rigpa.Passing By wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:33 pmSo, in other words, as long as one is working with the thigle nyagchig, regardless of what method is being used, it is guru yoga as far as Dzogchen is concerned, whether the practice nominally has a guru figure, deity or dakini associated with it?