Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

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Passing By
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Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Passing By »

Something I've wondered for some time now. Is there actually any practical difference whatsoever between generating yourself as whatever yidam you practice, doing the mantra recitation/ trondeu etc then dissolving and resting as best as you can in trekchod/ the natural state and the Guru Yoga practices where you supplicate and visualize receiving the four empowerments then also dissolving and resting in the natural state?

It seems no, going by what Garchen Rinpoche says but then in Dzogchen, Guru Yoga is always emphasized as the essence of everything up to and including upadesha practices. Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?



(and no....I'm not trying to start another debate here of whether yidam practice is essential for Dzogchen or not....The question is more of can yidam be used as an Ati Guru Yoga? After all, Padmasambhava/ Kilaya/ Taphiritsa etc are also yidams as well as guru figures.)
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Passing By wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pmSomething I've wondered for some time now. Is there actually any practical difference whatsoever between generating yourself as whatever yidam you practice, doing the mantra recitation/ trondeu etc then dissolving and resting as best as you can in trekchod/ the natural state and the Guru Yoga practices where you supplicate and visualize receiving the four empowerments then also dissolving and resting in the natural state?

It seems no, going by what Garchen Rinpoche says but then in Dzogchen, Guru Yoga is always emphasized as the essence of everything up to and including upadesha practices. Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?



(and no....I'm not trying to start another debate here of whether yidam practice is essential for Dzogchen or not....The question is more of can yidam be used as an Ati Guru Yoga? After all, Padmasambhava/ Kilaya/ Taphiritsa etc are also yidams as well as guru figures.)
No difference whatsoever. Actually, yidam practice would be a form of Guru Yoga (at least in the inner tantras), as ChNN, HEGR and others have explicitly stated (if you are a DC person, see the Jnanadakini Thukthik books or Gomadevi Practice Retreat).

They are different ritual genres, though.
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Natan »

There's a famous story I believe it was Marpa learning from Naropa and Naropa manifested the Hevajra mandala visibly in front of Marpa. Then he asked Marpa who should he prostrate to, and Marpa prostrated to the mandala. Naropa then chided him that the guru is the source of the mandala and prophecied his family lineage would not amount to much but his dharma lineage would be great.
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Virgo »

Passing By wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?


In this case Dzogchen becomes a kind of completion stage, which it pretty much is anyway.

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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by lelopa »

Passing By wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm .............
.......
After all, Padmasambhava/ Kilaya/ Taphiritsa etc are also yidams as well as guru figures.)

:jawdrop:
Never heard of a Tapihritsa self-visualisation like a yidam-sadhana
:thinking:
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Kris »

It's impossible to 'rudra yourself' with guru yoga.
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

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lelopa wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:32 am
Passing By wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm .............
.......
After all, Padmasambhava/ Kilaya/ Taphiritsa etc are also yidams as well as guru figures.)

:jawdrop:
Never heard of a Tapihritsa self-visualisation like a yidam-sadhana
:thinking:
Whoops, meant Drenpa Namkha. But anyway, Tapihritsa still merges with you at the end of his guru yoga so it still winds up like that

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:37 pm

No difference whatsoever. Actually, yidam practice would be a form of Guru Yoga (at least in the inner tantras), as ChNN, HEGR and others have explicitly stated (if you are a DC person, see the Jnanadakini Thukthik books or Gomadevi Practice Retreat).

They are different ritual genres, though.
Right, thanks for the clarification

Sennin wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:47 am It's impossible to 'rudra yourself' with guru yoga.

What does that actually entail anyway? Falling into a rudra state I mean. The story is famous and all but why does guru yoga not carry that risk since technically someone could still abuse it no?
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by pemachophel »

Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

pemachophel wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Thanks. That couldn’t be any clearer.

Still, I wish I understood it.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Natan »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:12 am
pemachophel wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Thanks. That couldn’t be any clearer.

Still, I wish I understood it.
Once upon a time there was a place called Vajrayanaville they did mantras. They did mantras of all kinds. And they visualized. Whoa... For real you can imagine things? Yes. They invented that.

One day a little mountain man who grunted sounds with his monkey friends went down to Vajrayanaville and learned words. Then he learned mantras and imagination. He was taught to think about pictures.

Once he realized he'd left his grunting wife and kids to die in the snow he went home. He taught them all that he knew.

Then his children were so amazed by words they made more words and really let their imaginations be free. We can imagine anything!

But then they formed teams of who had the better imaginations. Wars broke out. Monkeys died. The squeals scared the pigs. Almost no everyone stopped using imaginations.

One day a very clever man saw an opportunity. Why use imagination when we can just make bullshit lists? I will take command of the armies of the world with lists of that make no difference or mean anything!

And the monkey mountain men loved it. You can make poems. You can sound smart. You can quote portions in other lists of monkey grunts and sound smarter then the first smart guy.

But the war went on too long. They begged a wiseman from Vajrayanaville to come and broker peace. He heard all sides. They won't stop bickering over trifling points.

Then he asked what was the point of life? They said, enlightenment. How do you get it? Buddha's teaching. Where is the best teaching? Tantras. Tantra is what? Mantra. Mantra has how many sides?

Ooooooo
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Natan »

pemachophel wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Guru is the yidam. Siddhis come from kyerim. Activities are for those accomplished; they call it dzogrim.
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:45 am
pemachophel wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Guru is the yidam. Siddhis come from kyerim. Activities are for those accomplished; they call it dzogrim.
Is this the kagyu view, while Lama Pema presented the nyingma view of the topic?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Once upon a time there was a place called Vajrayanaville they did mantras. They did mantras of all kinds. And they visualized. Whoa... For real you can imagine things? Yes. They invented that.

One day a little mountain man who grunted sounds with his monkey friends went down to Vajrayanaville and learned words. Then he learned mantras and imagination. He was taught to think about pictures.

Once he realized he'd left his grunting wife and kids to die in the snow he went home. He taught them all that he knew.

Then his children were so amazed by words they made more words and really let their imaginations be free. We can imagine anything!

But then they formed teams of who had the better imaginations. Wars broke out. Monkeys died. The squeals scared the pigs. Almost no everyone stopped using imaginations.

One day a very clever man saw an opportunity. Why use imagination when we can just make bullshit lists? I will take command of the armies of the world with lists of that make no difference or mean anything!

And the monkey mountain men loved it. You can make poems. You can sound smart. You can quote portions in other lists of monkey grunts and sound smarter then the first smart guy.

But the war went on too long. They begged a wiseman from Vajrayanaville to come and broker peace. He heard all sides. They won't stop bickering over trifling points.

Then he asked what was the point of life? They said, enlightenment. How do you get it? Buddha's teaching. Where is the best teaching? Tantras. Tantra is what? Mantra. Mantra has how many sides?

Ooooooo
Aside from the general tone, I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
:thinking:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm
...Dzogchen, Guru Yoga is always emphasized as the essence of everything up to and including upadesha practices. Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?
In Dzogchen, the guru, the yidam, and the ḍākinī are the basis, and nothing else. The guru is the essence, original purity; the yidam is the nature, natural purity; and the ḍākinī is their inseparability, compassion.
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by karmanyingpo »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:12 am
pemachophel wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Thanks. That couldn’t be any clearer.

Still, I wish I understood it.
My understanding is also poor but perhaps mandala offerings would help? Have heard that it can help people gain better understanding


KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:59 pm
Passing By wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm
...Dzogchen, Guru Yoga is always emphasized as the essence of everything up to and including upadesha practices. Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?
In Dzogchen, the guru, the yidam, and the ḍākinī are the basis, and nothing else. The guru is the essence, original purity; the yidam is the nature, natural purity; and the ḍākinī is their inseparability, compassion.
So, in other words, as long as one is working with the thigle nyagchig, regardless of what method is being used, it is guru yoga as far as Dzogchen is concerned, whether the practice nominally has a guru figure, deity or dakini associated with it?
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Natan »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:16 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:45 am
pemachophel wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Guru sadhanas are for blessings.
Yidam sadhanas are for siddhi/accomplishment.
Dakini sadhanas are for prophecies and/or activities.
Guru is the yidam. Siddhis come from kyerim. Activities are for those accomplished; they call it dzogrim.
Is this the kagyu view, while Lama Pema presented the nyingma view of the topic?
Guhyagarbha
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:59 pm
Passing By wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:53 pm
...Dzogchen, Guru Yoga is always emphasized as the essence of everything up to and including upadesha practices. Is yidam done in Ati context also considered a form of Guru Yoga?
In Dzogchen, the guru, the yidam, and the ḍākinī are the basis, and nothing else. The guru is the essence, original purity; the yidam is the nature, natural purity; and the ḍākinī is their inseparability, compassion.
So, in other words, as long as one is working with the thigle nyagchig, regardless of what method is being used, it is guru yoga as far as Dzogchen is concerned, whether the practice nominally has a guru figure, deity or dakini associated with it?
In Dzogchen, the guru, yidam, and ḍākinī is rigpa.
Passing By
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Re: Practical difference between Yidam practice and Guru Yoga

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:00 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:59 pm

In Dzogchen, the guru, the yidam, and the ḍākinī are the basis, and nothing else. The guru is the essence, original purity; the yidam is the nature, natural purity; and the ḍākinī is their inseparability, compassion.
So, in other words, as long as one is working with the thigle nyagchig, regardless of what method is being used, it is guru yoga as far as Dzogchen is concerned, whether the practice nominally has a guru figure, deity or dakini associated with it?
In Dzogchen, the guru, yidam, and ḍākinī is rigpa.
Right, that is clear, thanks
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