Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

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The Mantra Mongoose
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Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by The Mantra Mongoose »

I was curious about what people who primarily practice Dzogchen end up doing with all the ritual implements from Tantra? Of course, I’m assuming that the individuals in question practice in a way were those implements aren’t necessary. For example, my daily practice( without getting into detail due to samaya) doesn’t require me to use anything outside of my mala, and even then I’ve been told it’s not absolutely required. I realize that this question varies incredibly due to different Guru/student relationships and instruction. It’s something that’s been in the back of my mind, and I though I would ask to see what other people’s experiences are. I’m posting this with the understanding that I’m not crossing any lines in asking this question, though if a mod thinks I am please tell me so I can take it down. Thanks.
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Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by Virgo »

The implements are merely symbols of aspects of your own state. Since your own state cannot be altered, changed, or taken away in any way, there is no reason to have implements which are merely representations.

Virgo
The Mantra Mongoose
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by The Mantra Mongoose »

Hey Virgo,

I personally agree wholeheartedly with you. I'm more interested if its ok to give them away to a dharma center, or what to do with them if i'm no longer using them? Especially, if at one point and time the items were Samaya implements whats the protocol? I'm really just trying respect dependent origination, and not do something stupid that would create obstacles to my practice in the long run lol.
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Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by Virgo »

The Mantra Mongoose wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:30 am Hey Virgo,

I personally agree wholeheartedly with you. I'm more interested if its ok to give them away to a dharma center, or what to do with them if i'm no longer using them? Especially, if at one point and time the items were Samaya implements whats the protocol? I'm just trying respect dependent origination and not do something stupid lol.
Oh no, I wouldn't give them to anybody. I would just keep them with practice items. Sometimes you can use them also if you like. They are still symbols, whether you use them frequently or not they still represent what they represent. I am not sure you want to give that away. That's my own personal opinion. YMMV.

Virgo
The Mantra Mongoose
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by The Mantra Mongoose »

Virgo wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:39 am
The Mantra Mongoose wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:30 am Hey Virgo,

I personally agree wholeheartedly with you. I'm more interested if its ok to give them away to a dharma center, or what to do with them if i'm no longer using them? Especially, if at one point and time the items were Samaya implements whats the protocol? I'm just trying respect dependent origination and not do something stupid lol.
Oh no, I wouldn't give them to anybody. I would just keep them with practice items. Sometimes you can use them also if you like. They are still symbols, whether you use them frequently or not they still represent what they represent. I am not sure you want to give that away. That's my own personal opinion. YMMV.

Virgo
yeah, that's my current position on the matter as well. I like having them around because there a constant reminder to continually look at my mind, and rest in open awareness. My whole question really stems from what I've read in others places of people just giving these things away, and my initial reaction was how does that work in relation to dependent origination. I for one am not resting in Rigpa 24/7 even though i would love to, so i'm weary about cause and effect. thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Danny
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by Danny »

The Mantra Mongoose wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:03 am I was curious about what people who primarily practice Dzogchen end up doing with all the ritual implements from Tantra? Of course, I’m assuming that the individuals in question practice in a way were those implements aren’t necessary. For example, my daily practice( without getting into detail due to samaya) doesn’t require me to use anything outside of my mala, and even then I’ve been told it’s not absolutely required. I realize that this question varies incredibly due to different Guru/student relationships and instruction. It’s something that’s been in the back of my mind, and I though I would ask to see what other people’s experiences are. I’m posting this with the understanding that I’m not crossing any lines in asking this question, though if a mod thinks I am please tell me so I can take it down. Thanks.
Dzogchenpa uses whatever. Even if one uses a bible to communicate,
It’s about working with circumstances.
Natan
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by Natan »

The Mantra Mongoose wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:30 am Hey Virgo,

I personally agree wholeheartedly with you. I'm more interested if its ok to give them away to a dharma center, or what to do with them if i'm no longer using them? Especially, if at one point and time the items were Samaya implements whats the protocol? I'm really just trying respect dependent origination, and not do something stupid that would create obstacles to my practice in the long run lol.
Leave them on a shrine somewhere. But they come in handy later like if you want to lead a practice for beginners etc. Or scare ghosts... The usual...
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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by heart »

In Sutra, people often feel that they need to change something, because the teaching is called 'the path of renunciation.' Some­ one who becomes a monk or a nun feels that they have now re­ nounced the worldly situation, their ordinary life, thinking, "Now, we are Sangha. We are important. We are different." When we are doing a practice or having a meeting, and a monk or a nun arrives, they always look for the place reserved for the Sangha, because they expect the Sangha always to be honoured. They always have this attitude and, when they see Jay people, they re­ gard them as samsaric people. They are monks and nuns, some­ thing more elevated. They have a very strong feeling they need to change something
Chögyal Namkhaiu Norbu - Dzogchen teachings in Gutenstein Austria.

These days it seems even the Dzogchen practitioners feel they have to change something. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
The Mantra Mongoose
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by The Mantra Mongoose »

heart wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:42 pm
In Sutra, people often feel that they need to change something, because the teaching is called 'the path of renunciation.' Some­ one who becomes a monk or a nun feels that they have now re­ nounced the worldly situation, their ordinary life, thinking, "Now, we are Sangha. We are important. We are different." When we are doing a practice or having a meeting, and a monk or a nun arrives, they always look for the place reserved for the Sangha, because they expect the Sangha always to be honoured. They always have this attitude and, when they see Jay people, they re­ gard them as samsaric people. They are monks and nuns, some­ thing more elevated. They have a very strong feeling they need to change something
Chögyal Namkhaiu Norbu - Dzogchen teachings in Gutenstein Austria.

These days it seems even the Dzogchen practitioners feel they have to change something. :smile:

/magnus
hey Heart,

thank you, i needed to hear this.
rai
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by rai »

you are too agreeable for a dzogchen practitioner
The Mantra Mongoose
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by The Mantra Mongoose »

rai wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:52 pm you are too agreeable for a dzogchen practitioner
I don't know about that lol. :tongue: Its just after everything I've experienced/read in my life i can honestly say i don't no much if anything at all. So i prefer to consider everything openly, and of course with a grain of salt.
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by Tata1 »

The Mantra Mongoose wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:55 pm
heart wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:42 pm
In Sutra, people often feel that they need to change something, because the teaching is called 'the path of renunciation.' Some­ one who becomes a monk or a nun feels that they have now re­ nounced the worldly situation, their ordinary life, thinking, "Now, we are Sangha. We are important. We are different." When we are doing a practice or having a meeting, and a monk or a nun arrives, they always look for the place reserved for the Sangha, because they expect the Sangha always to be honoured. They always have this attitude and, when they see Jay people, they re­ gard them as samsaric people. They are monks and nuns, some­ thing more elevated. They have a very strong feeling they need to change something
Chögyal Namkhaiu Norbu - Dzogchen teachings in Gutenstein Austria.

These days it seems even the Dzogchen practitioners feel they have to change something. :smile:

/magnus
hey Heart,

thank you, i needed to hear this.
He also says something among the lines that people who reject ritual practice because they are "dzogchenpas" are just limiting themselves and dzogchen is about going beyond limitation.

To lazy to quoate sorry
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by Tata1 »

The Mantra Mongoose wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:55 pm
heart wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:42 pm
In Sutra, people often feel that they need to change something, because the teaching is called 'the path of renunciation.' Some­ one who becomes a monk or a nun feels that they have now re­ nounced the worldly situation, their ordinary life, thinking, "Now, we are Sangha. We are important. We are different." When we are doing a practice or having a meeting, and a monk or a nun arrives, they always look for the place reserved for the Sangha, because they expect the Sangha always to be honoured. They always have this attitude and, when they see Jay people, they re­ gard them as samsaric people. They are monks and nuns, some­ thing more elevated. They have a very strong feeling they need to change something
Chögyal Namkhaiu Norbu - Dzogchen teachings in Gutenstein Austria.

These days it seems even the Dzogchen practitioners feel they have to change something. :smile:

/magnus
hey Heart,

thank you, i needed to hear this.
He also says something among the lines that people who reject ritual practice because they are "dzogchenpas" are just limiting themselves and dzogchen is about going beyond limitation.

To lazy to quote sorry
The Mantra Mongoose
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by The Mantra Mongoose »

Tata1 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:17 pm
The Mantra Mongoose wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:55 pm
heart wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:42 pm

Chögyal Namkhaiu Norbu - Dzogchen teachings in Gutenstein Austria.

These days it seems even the Dzogchen practitioners feel they have to change something. :smile:

/magnus
hey Heart,

thank you, i needed to hear this.
He also says something among the lines that people who reject ritual practice because they are "dzogchenpas" are just limiting themselves and dzogchen is about going beyond limitation.

To lazy to quoate sorry
Hey Tata1,

So would NN say i should see my practice like a Swiss army knife? Like having a different tool for every situation, yet part of a beautiful whole?
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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by heart »

The Mantra Mongoose wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:55 pm
heart wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:42 pm
In Sutra, people often feel that they need to change something, because the teaching is called 'the path of renunciation.' Some­ one who becomes a monk or a nun feels that they have now re­ nounced the worldly situation, their ordinary life, thinking, "Now, we are Sangha. We are important. We are different." When we are doing a practice or having a meeting, and a monk or a nun arrives, they always look for the place reserved for the Sangha, because they expect the Sangha always to be honoured. They always have this attitude and, when they see Jay people, they re­ gard them as samsaric people. They are monks and nuns, some­ thing more elevated. They have a very strong feeling they need to change something
Chögyal Namkhaiu Norbu - Dzogchen teachings in Gutenstein Austria.

These days it seems even the Dzogchen practitioners feel they have to change something. :smile:

/magnus
hey Heart,

thank you, i needed to hear this.
You are welcome, no point in painting yourself in to a corner. ChNNR taught a lot of different practices and he also practiced many of them. So you can let yourself be inspired by his lead.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by Tata1 »

The Mantra Mongoose wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:26 pm
Tata1 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:17 pm
The Mantra Mongoose wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:55 pm
hey Heart,

thank you, i needed to hear this.
He also says something among the lines that people who reject ritual practice because they are "dzogchenpas" are just limiting themselves and dzogchen is about going beyond limitation.

To lazy to quoate sorry
Hey Tata1,

So would NN say i should see my practice like a Swiss army knife? Like having a different tool for every situation, yet part of a beautiful whole?
Something like that.
He said all the secondary practices become the main practice when combined with guru yoga.
And guru yoga means to be in the state of the guru.
fckw
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

Post by fckw »

From my experience, the level of practice may change throughout the day. For example, practicing Dzogchen while sitting on the pillow is, let's say, relatively easy. Then, when you try to practice it throughout the day in a less protected environment you may realize a moment during the day where you completely fall from the view. If in that moment according to your own assessment Dzogchen as a vehicle is no longer available to you you fall back to one of the prior vehicles, e.g. use some tantric techniques to transform the strong emotions you feel. And if you don't manage to do that according to your own assessment you may also switch from tantra to sutra and practice loving kindness for yourself to encounter some strong negative emotions you may have.

Initially, it might be like: 10% dzogchen practice throughout the day, 25% tantric practice throughout the day, 65% sutra practice throughout the day. Not necessarily formal practice all the time, but more the view you take towards anything that arises. Once your practice is matured, it might be more like 65% dzogchen practice throughout the day, 25% tantric practice, 10% sutric practice. And if you go even further, then at some point your start realizing that, in a certain sense, there really is and always only was the dzogchen view to practice with, you just thought there was not. And then you believe that you are a really great practitioner - until the next wave of the ocean hits your boat hard, and you have to go back aaaaallll the way to sutric practice to just stabilize your emotions. But things settle down at bit, and after some storm you return to the dzogchen view of things. And on it goes.

In very brief: If you believe you have to "counter" negative emotions, then you are on a sutric path of practice. If you believe you have to "transform" negative emotions, then you are on a tantric path of practice. If you your "negative" emotions self-liberate while you simply hold the view, then you are on the dzogchen path of practice.
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Re: Dzogchen and ritual implements from Tantra.

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