Equivalent to thogal

[Malcolm]

My point being that with or without invitation, the visualized deity is never dismissed as simply one’s own imagination/samayasattva. If there’s no invitation the presence of jnanasattva is assumed, not dismissed.

The creation stage deity is a conceptual construct, an antidote to other concepts. That's all. From a Dzogchen perspective, it is an deviation.

This is wrong. The deities are Dzogchen.

So the state of dzogchen has faces and hands? Really?

[Malcolm]

Malcolm: whether there’s an invitation or not, the jnanasattva is a fiction and not to be taken seriously.

No, in mahayoga sadhanas, it is to be taken seriously as a symbolic method (but still a conceptual fabrication), just like it is in anuyoga.

But this does not apply to Dzogchen at all. The path is different, so the method is different.

Dzogchen is not a method. ChNN said that often. This is an important point.

Dzogchen is a path, paths have methods. ChNN also stated this often. What ChNN said is that Dzogchen is not a technique.

[Natan]

No, in mahayoga sadhanas, it is to be taken seriously as a symbolic method (but still a conceptual fabrication), just like it is in anuyoga.

But this does not apply to Dzogchen at all. The path is different, so the method is different.

Dzogchen is not a method. ChNN said that often. This is an important point.

Dzogchen is a path, paths have methods. ChNN also stated this often. What ChNN said is that Dzogchen is not a technique.

Technique, path... The path is tregcho/togal. Or yangti. These are paths to realize Dzogchen

[Natan]

The creation stage deity is a conceptual construct, an antidote to other concepts. That's all. From a Dzogchen perspective, it is an deviation.

This is wrong. The deities are Dzogchen.

So the state of dzogchen has faces and hands? Really?

So do you. Did you forget the part about culmination of rigpa? There's a wholeness. You can't say your mind is apart from your body. I think the distinction to be made here is the dakinis etc stand for Yogacara principles is outmoded by the natural I guess blossoming of rigpa. And the pith instructions guide one into an effortlessness.

And I know we are going to clash about this. But the Guhyagarbha does not lay the mandala out this way. In nyingthig what naturally appears? The Shitro.

And which lama exactly devalues deity yoga this way? You are going to lead a practice of ganapuja how? These deities are no made up. They were natural. If every moment is is ganapuja great that is a master. Most folks can't do that.

You have this penchant for conditioning folks toward the Dzogchen tantras way. That's not good. Lamas embrace everything because the person in front of you needs guidance and you have to speak to their level.

[PeterC]

The Buddha actually presents his own version of pascal's wager in the pali Canon in regards to karma and whether one should believe it without having direct experience of it.

The difference is that where pascal proposes that one should believe on the basis of the wager, the Buddha proposes that it doesn't really matter that much if you actually believe in karma, as long as you recognise the prudence in acting as if karma were actually the case. That and the fact that the benefits of the Buddha's wager are weighed against observable benefits in this life rather than hypothetical benefits in the after life.

Are you referring to the four consolations?

No, although I suppose they relate. I refer to the apannaka Sutta, where the Buddha lays out a "safe bet":

Even if we didn't speak of action, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable contemplatives & brahmans, this venerable person is still praised in the here-&-now by the observant as a person of good habits & right view: one who holds to a doctrine of action.'
If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a good throw twice, in that he is praised by the observant here-&-now; and in that — with the breakup of the body, after death — he will reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when well grasped & adopted by him, covers both sides, and leaves behind the possibility of the unskillful.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html (here are also links to other wager type strategems the Buddha employs).

Ah yes. Thanks.

[Malcolm]

Dzogchen is not a method. ChNN said that often. This is an important point.

Dzogchen is a path, paths have methods. ChNN also stated this often. What ChNN said is that Dzogchen is not a technique.

Technique, path... The path is tregcho/togal. Or yangti. These are paths to realize Dzogchen

You left out rushen. This is indispensable on the path of Dzogchen. It enhances trekcho, and is the preliminary for thogal.

[Natan]

Dzogchen is a path, paths have methods. ChNN also stated this often. What ChNN said is that Dzogchen is not a technique.

Technique, path... The path is tregcho/togal. Or yangti. These are paths to realize Dzogchen

You left out rushen. This is indispensable on the path of Dzogchen. It enhances trekcho, and is the preliminary for thogal.

This is a variable. See how this is treated in Chetsun Nyingthig. Hardly at all. This might be wrong. Don't have my books but I don't recall rushen in the yangti system. There is shitro.. i think the very salient point coming out if your translation is a guru can use explanations to introduce a person to rigpa. It is almost impossible to learn that bit from a lama. But we have to put that into perspective. These are pith instructions. Those are there in myriad phrases to wake up someone who can take it.

[Malcolm]

You have this penchant for conditioning folks toward the Dzogchen tantras way.

The Dzogchen tantras teach a vehicle independent of the nine yānas. I am just following the teachings of ChNN. YMMV.

[Natan]

You have this penchant for conditioning folks toward the Dzogchen tantras way.

The Dzogchen tantras teach a vehicle independent of the nine yānas. YMMV.

Then why is it called the 9th? It is Ati, right?

[Malcolm]

This is a variable. See how this is treated in Chetsun Nyingthig. Hardly at all.

Rushen is quite important in the Chetsun Nyinthig System, indeed it is mentioned in the root text. But there is no point in discussing this further in this kind of open forum. You might want to acquire Khen Rinpoche's book on the subject.

[Natan]

This is a variable. See how this is treated in Chetsun Nyingthig. Hardly at all.

Rushen is quite important in the Chetsun Nyinthig System, indeed it is mentioned in the root text. But there is no point in discussing this further in this kind of open forum. You might want to acquire Khen Rinpoche's book on the subject.

Oh I have it. One of the benefits of being at his empowerment isis a free ebook. But what is rushen then? Can be many things.. no running through the woods there.. btw next time you want to take this to the woods let me know. I love the woods

[Danny]

The symbolic transmission apparently is not a thing these days.
It helps clear away doubts by simply being “shown” with a simple explanation with a few simple items. Once reflected upon and contemplated, a few reinforcing practices and upadesha instructions to absorb, everything else is secondary.

[Malcolm]

The symbolic transmission apparently is not a thing these days.

Of course it is a thing. All Dzogchen transmissions contain it. Whether the guru makes it clear or not is another issue altogether.

[Natan]

The symbolic transmission apparently is not a thing these days.

Of course it is a thing. All Dzogchen transmissions contain it. Whether the guru makes it clear or not is another issue altogether.

That's what's indispensable

[Danny]

The symbolic transmission apparently is not a thing these days.

Of course it is a thing. All Dzogchen transmissions contain it. Whether the guru makes it clear or not is another issue altogether.

Well I can’t speak on that, I’m just reading what goes on here.

[Malcolm]

You have this penchant for conditioning folks toward the Dzogchen tantras way.

The Dzogchen tantras teach a vehicle independent of the nine yānas. YMMV.

Then why is it called the 9th? It is Ati, right?

Dzogchen is beyond the nine vehicle system.

[Natan]

The Dzogchen tantras teach a vehicle independent of the nine yānas. YMMV.

Then why is it called the 9th? It is Ati, right?

Dzogchen is beyond the nine vehicle system.

Dzogchen is not a system. The intestines are s system.

[Sādhaka]

How are Atiyoga, sPyiti Yoga, and Yangti classified within Semde, Longde, and the four divisions of Menngagde (or vice-versa); if at all?

If we’re going to make classifications, then Ati is the trio of Mahayoga, Anuyoga, & Semde; then beyond Semde we’re not in Ati proper anymore, that is if getting technical in regard to doxographical classifications...?

[Malcolm]

How are Atiyoga, sPyiti Yoga, and Yangti classified within Semde, Longde, and the four divisions of Menngagde (or vice-versa); if at all?

Yangti belongs to man ngag sde, according to ChNN.

[fckw]

The creation stage deity is a conceptual construct, an antidote to other concepts. That's all. From a Dzogchen perspective, it is an deviation.

This is wrong. The deities are Dzogchen.

So the state of dzogchen has faces and hands? Really?

So, it's a state then?