Equivalent to thogal
Equivalent to thogal
Is there any equivalent to thogal in mahamudra or among the New Tantra schools?
Re: Equivalent to thogal
The Kalachakra is the closest in sarma.
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Re: Equivalent to thogal
Yup. But Jigme Lingpa responds such criticisms quite handily.GrapeLover wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:40 pmJust curious, did this ever see thögal singled out for doubt or criticism by Sarma schools?
Re: Equivalent to thogal
Every school criticizes every school. No school goes uncriticized. What gives thogal an advantage is it is natural and not visualized. Hard to argue the imaginary surpasses nature.GrapeLover wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:40 pmJust curious, did this ever see thögal singled out for doubt or criticism by Sarma schools?
Last edited by Natan on Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Equivalent to thogal
Yeah, I practise in Nyingma. I was just interested.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:30 pmEvery school criticizes every school. No school goes uncriticized. What gives thogal an advantage is it is natural and not visualized. Hard to argue the imaginary surpasses nature.GrapeLover wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:40 pmJust curious, did this ever see thögal singled out for doubt or criticism by Sarma schools?
Re: Equivalent to thogal
Probably Nyingma caught the most flack.GrapeLover wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:39 pmYeah, I practise in Nyingma. I was just interested.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:30 pmEvery school criticizes every school. No school goes uncriticized. What gives thogal an advantage is it is natural and not visualized. Hard to argue the imaginary surpasses nature.GrapeLover wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:40 pm
Just curious, did this ever see thögal singled out for doubt or criticism by Sarma schools?
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Re: Equivalent to thogal
If all you’re working with is the samaya sattva, well yes of course.Hard to argue the imaginary surpasses nature.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Equivalent to thogal
Does visualized mean imaginary? If so, then why not create our own visualizations?
Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:30 pm Every school criticizes every school. No school goes uncriticized. What gives thogal an advantage is it is natural and not visualized. Hard to argue the imaginary surpasses nature.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Re: Equivalent to thogal
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Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Equivalent to thogal
Well, let's pull out some definitions:
im·ag·i·nar·y
/iˈmajəˌnerē/
adjective
1.existing only in the imagination.
im·ag·i·na·tion
/iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.
Does the use of the second necessarily imply the first?
im·ag·i·nar·y
/iˈmajəˌnerē/
adjective
1.existing only in the imagination.
im·ag·i·na·tion
/iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.
Does the use of the second necessarily imply the first?
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Re: Equivalent to thogal
Both, actually. This is why we summon the jñānasattva, because until that point, the samayasattva is just a conceptual fiction. This is the basis of the whole Dzogchen critique of creation stage.Matt J wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:03 pm Well, let's pull out some definitions:
im·ag·i·nar·y
/iˈmajəˌnerē/
adjective
1.existing only in the imagination.
im·ag·i·na·tion
/iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.
Does the use of the second necessarily imply the first?
Re: Equivalent to thogal
So can I just replace Ratnasambhava with say, Ronald McDonald?
Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:28 pmBoth, actually. This is why we summon the jñānasattva, because until that point, the samayasattva is just a conceptual fiction. This is the basis of the whole Dzogchen critique of creation stage.Matt J wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:03 pm Well, let's pull out some definitions:
im·ag·i·nar·y
/iˈmajəˌnerē/
adjective
1.existing only in the imagination.
im·ag·i·na·tion
/iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.
Does the use of the second necessarily imply the first?
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Re: Equivalent to thogal
We are in the Dzogchen sub and Malcolm is explaining accordingly and accurately .There is no need for hyperbole.Matt J wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:05 pm So can I just replace Ratnasambhava with say, Ronald McDonald?
Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:28 pmBoth, actually. This is why we summon the jñānasattva, because until that point, the samayasattva is just a conceptual fiction. This is the basis of the whole Dzogchen critique of creation stage.Matt J wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:03 pm Well, let's pull out some definitions:
im·ag·i·nar·y
/iˈmajəˌnerē/
adjective
1.existing only in the imagination.
im·ag·i·na·tion
/iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.
Does the use of the second necessarily imply the first?
Re: Equivalent to thogal
If Ronald Mcdonald is taught by a Buddha in a tantra as a means of purifying the aggregate of sensation, then sure. If not, then I am afraid you are shit out of luck.
The reason we have a completion stage is to eliminate the conceptuality of the creation stage. The creation stage is meant to substitute impure conceptuality with pure conceptuality. The completion stage is meant to eradicate even pure conceptuality. Imagining oneself as a deity is just an exercise in conceptuality that also must be overcome.