Equivalent to thogal

Locked
Johndoe
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:29 pm

Equivalent to thogal

Post by Johndoe »

Is there any equivalent to thogal in mahamudra or among the New Tantra schools?
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Virgo »

Johndoe wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:13 pm Is there any equivalent to thogal in mahamudra or among the New Tantra schools?
No. Although there are instructions related to Hevajra (if I am not mistaken) which lead to rainbow body.

Virgo
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:32 pm
Johndoe wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:13 pm Is there any equivalent to thogal in mahamudra or among the New Tantra schools?
No. Although there are instructions related to Hevajra (if I am not mistaken) which lead to rainbow body.

Virgo
The Kalachakra is the closest in sarma.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Johndoe wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:13 pm Is there any equivalent to thogal in mahamudra or among the New Tantra schools?
Nope.
GrapeLover
Posts: 291
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:55 am

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by GrapeLover »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:29 pm
Johndoe wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:13 pm Is there any equivalent to thogal in mahamudra or among the New Tantra schools?
Nope.
Just curious, did this ever see thögal singled out for doubt or criticism by Sarma schools?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

GrapeLover wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:40 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:29 pm
Johndoe wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:13 pm Is there any equivalent to thogal in mahamudra or among the New Tantra schools?
Nope.
Just curious, did this ever see thögal singled out for doubt or criticism by Sarma schools?
Yup. But Jigme Lingpa responds such criticisms quite handily.
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Natan »

GrapeLover wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:40 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:29 pm
Johndoe wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:13 pm Is there any equivalent to thogal in mahamudra or among the New Tantra schools?
Nope.
Just curious, did this ever see thögal singled out for doubt or criticism by Sarma schools?
Every school criticizes every school. No school goes uncriticized. What gives thogal an advantage is it is natural and not visualized. Hard to argue the imaginary surpasses nature.
Last edited by Natan on Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GrapeLover
Posts: 291
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:55 am

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by GrapeLover »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:30 pm
GrapeLover wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:40 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:29 pm

Nope.
Just curious, did this ever see thögal singled out for doubt or criticism by Sarma schools?
Every school criticizes every school. No school goes uncriticized. What gives thogal an advantage is it is natural and not visualized. Hard to argue the imaginary surpasses nature.
Yeah, I practise in Nyingma. I was just interested.
Natan
Posts: 3685
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Natan »

GrapeLover wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:39 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:30 pm
GrapeLover wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:40 pm

Just curious, did this ever see thögal singled out for doubt or criticism by Sarma schools?
Every school criticizes every school. No school goes uncriticized. What gives thogal an advantage is it is natural and not visualized. Hard to argue the imaginary surpasses nature.
Yeah, I practise in Nyingma. I was just interested.
Probably Nyingma caught the most flack.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Hard to argue the imaginary surpasses nature.
If all you’re working with is the samaya sattva, well yes of course.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
Matt J
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Matt J »

Does visualized mean imaginary? If so, then why not create our own visualizations?
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:30 pm Every school criticizes every school. No school goes uncriticized. What gives thogal an advantage is it is natural and not visualized. Hard to argue the imaginary surpasses nature.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
User avatar
Sādhaka
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Sādhaka »

.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:38 pm Does visualized mean imaginary?
Yes, this is why in many sadhanas is says, "Imagine oneself as _insert name of yidam here_.
User avatar
Matt J
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Matt J »

Well, let's pull out some definitions:

im·ag·i·nar·y
/iˈmajəˌnerē/
adjective
1.existing only in the imagination.

im·ag·i·na·tion
/iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.

Does the use of the second necessarily imply the first?
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:55 pm
Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:38 pm Does visualized mean imaginary?
Yes, this is why in many sadhanas is says, "Imagine oneself as _insert name of yidam here_.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:03 pm Well, let's pull out some definitions:

im·ag·i·nar·y
/iˈmajəˌnerē/
adjective
1.existing only in the imagination.

im·ag·i·na·tion
/iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.

Does the use of the second necessarily imply the first?
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:55 pm
Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:38 pm Does visualized mean imaginary?
Yes, this is why in many sadhanas is says, "Imagine oneself as _insert name of yidam here_.
Both, actually. This is why we summon the jñānasattva, because until that point, the samayasattva is just a conceptual fiction. This is the basis of the whole Dzogchen critique of creation stage.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Virgo »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:28 pm
Both, actually. This is why we summon the jñānasattva, because until that point, the samayasattva is just a conceptual fiction. This is the basis of the whole Dzogchen critique of creation stage.
Yes, this is an important point. :namaste:

Virgo
User avatar
Matt J
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Matt J »

So can I just replace Ratnasambhava with say, Ronald McDonald?
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:28 pm
Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:03 pm Well, let's pull out some definitions:

im·ag·i·nar·y
/iˈmajəˌnerē/
adjective
1.existing only in the imagination.

im·ag·i·na·tion
/iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.

Does the use of the second necessarily imply the first?
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:55 pm

Yes, this is why in many sadhanas is says, "Imagine oneself as _insert name of yidam here_.
Both, actually. This is why we summon the jñānasattva, because until that point, the samayasattva is just a conceptual fiction. This is the basis of the whole Dzogchen critique of creation stage.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Virgo »

Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:05 pm So can I just replace Ratnasambhava with say, Ronald McDonald?
Our minds are deeply connected to conceptualization - deeply - so no. Why? There is no Ronald McDonald deity to accomplish.

Virgo
amanitamusc
Posts: 2124
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by amanitamusc »

Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:05 pm So can I just replace Ratnasambhava with say, Ronald McDonald?
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:28 pm
Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:03 pm Well, let's pull out some definitions:

im·ag·i·nar·y
/iˈmajəˌnerē/
adjective
1.existing only in the imagination.

im·ag·i·na·tion
/iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.

Does the use of the second necessarily imply the first?

Both, actually. This is why we summon the jñānasattva, because until that point, the samayasattva is just a conceptual fiction. This is the basis of the whole Dzogchen critique of creation stage.
We are in the Dzogchen sub and Malcolm is explaining accordingly and accurately .There is no need for hyperbole.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:05 pm So can I just replace Ratnasambhava with say, Ronald McDonald?
If Ronald Mcdonald is taught by a Buddha in a tantra as a means of purifying the aggregate of sensation, then sure. If not, then I am afraid you are shit out of luck.

The reason we have a completion stage is to eliminate the conceptuality of the creation stage. The creation stage is meant to substitute impure conceptuality with pure conceptuality. The completion stage is meant to eradicate even pure conceptuality. Imagining oneself as a deity is just an exercise in conceptuality that also must be overcome.
Locked

Return to “Dzogchen”