Equivalent to thogal

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Malcolm
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:11 am
This function is generally abandoned at the level of anuyoga, and especially in ati yoga.
I ran this by someone who is fluent in Tibetan and has done the traditional Nyingma 3 year retreat. He said that as long as a dirty was involved the jnanasattva is invited at the beginning of the sadhana.

It is an academic issue for me since I don’t practice the higher Tantras. But I thought that since this is a public forum the misinformation should be tagged.
He is wrong. Just plain wrong.
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Sādhaka
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Sādhaka »

Although if you want to practice with inviting the Jnanasattva in a Anuyoga Sadhana, it is part of Narag Tongtrug, if I’m not mistaken.

But yea I don’t think that it is usually included in Anuyoga Sadhanas in general.
Malcolm
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:28 pm Although if you want to practice with inviting the Jnanasattva in a Anuyoga Sadhana, it is part of Narag Tongtrug, if I’m not mistaken.

But yea I don’t think that it is usually included in Anuyoga Sadhanas in general.
Yes, there are Anuyoga sadhanas that have lines to the effect, "the jñānasattva and the samayasattva are nondual from the beginning, rest in the state of that recognition" and so on.
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Just for clarification, his first retreat was Karma Kagyu. It was on his second retreat that he did Nyingma style, but it was the Kagyu version of Nyingma. When people do a second retreat here they can repeat the Karma Kagyu one or do a Nyingma retreat. So perhaps there’s some variation from how it’s done at a purely Nyingma retreat center.

So his credentials are quite substantial. As I said he’s fluent in Tibetan. He’s the only one here that has all the various 2 hours long daily sadhanas memoized by heart in Tibetan. All the others need their pechas.

I do not think he is mistaken about the higher tantras—at least as they are taught here. He’s not sloppy that way. However differences between specific lineages do occur, so there is that.

*********

That all said, I personally am a committed dilettante. And am perfectly happy with my kindergarten Dharma practice. That kind of dedication to Dharma practice takes a different kinda guy.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Matt J
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Matt J »

You stated that Malcolm provided "misinformation" in disagreeing with you (stating "[t]his function is generally abandoned at the level of anuyoga, and especially in ati yoga.") Now you are stating there may be a difference in lineage?

Also, it is not clear to me what was asked of this person, and what the response was, and the specific context given you do not practice these. Absolutizing a teacher's answer in Buddhism strikes me as very much missing the point.

I doubt that this person would claim "that as long as a deity was involved the jnanasattva is invited at the beginning of the sadhana" with specific regard to anu- and atiyoga, not only because it is such a broad, non-contextual response, but that is is fairly clearly false (even from a Kagyu POV, see, for example, The Tantric Path of Indestructible Wakefulness).
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:44 pm I do not think he is mistaken for how the higher tantras at least as they are taught here. He’s not sloppy that way. However differences between specific lineages do occur, so there is that.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
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Malcolm
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:44 pm
I do not think he is mistaken about the higher tantras—at least as they are taught here. He’s not sloppy that way. However differences between specific lineages do occur, so there is that.
“Oh Vajrapāṇi, listen!
The vehicle of the great āgamas of Anuyoga
maintains that two aspects, the dhātu and pristine
consciousness,
are held to be the vajra of inseparability.
The entryway is either instant or gradual.
The view to be realized is inseparability.

If it is asked what is instant entry,
deities are not created, but perfected by merely recalling
the essence.
If it is asked what is gradual entry,
having gradually entered the dhātu and pristine
consciousness,
one obtains the result on the stage of Vajradhara.


Self Arisen Vidyā Tantra, pg. 188.

There are two approaches in Anuyoga. In the instant approach, there is no practice of the three samadhis and no summoning of a jñānasattva.

In the gradual approach, the three samadhis are summarized by the recollection of Samanbhadra, Samantabhadri, that is, pristine consciousness and the dhātu respectively, whose union results in the child, the seed syllable. In gradual Anuyoga sadhanas, there may be nominal jñānasattva, but the view is emphasized that there is no actual separation between the samayasattva and jñānasattva and nothing actually is invoked.

There is only one explanation of the three inner tantras: a Nyingma one. There is no such thing as a "Kagyu approach to the three inner tantras."
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:25 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:44 pm
I do not think he is mistaken about the higher tantras—at least as they are taught here. He’s not sloppy that way. However differences between specific lineages do occur, so there is that.
“Oh Vajrapāṇi, listen!
The vehicle of the great āgamas of Anuyoga
maintains that two aspects, the dhātu and pristine
consciousness,
are held to be the vajra of inseparability.
The entryway is either instant or gradual.
The view to be realized is inseparability.

If it is asked what is instant entry,
deities are not created, but perfected by merely recalling
the essence.
If it is asked what is gradual entry,
having gradually entered the dhātu and pristine
consciousness,
one obtains the result on the stage of Vajradhara.


Self Arisen Vidyā Tantra, pg. 188.

There are two approaches in Anuyoga. In the instant approach, there is no practice of the three samadhis and no summoning of a jñānasattva.

In the gradual approach, the three samadhis are summarized by the recollection of Samanbhadra, Samantabhadri, that is, pristine consciousness and the dhātu respectively, whose union results in the child, the seed syllable. In gradual Anuyoga sadhanas, there may be nominal jñānasattva, but the view is emphasized that there is no actual separation between the samayasattva and jñānasattva and nothing actually is invoked.

There is only one explanation of the three inner tantras: a Nyingma one. There is no such thing as a "Kagyu approach to the three inner tantras."
Believe it or not this is in the Guhyagarbha. These distinctions are newfangle. Once upon a time it was par for the course.
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I think there may be some confusion about the "summoning" of the jnanasattvas. Even in his book on Ngondro, the previous Kalu R. made the point that if one had total faith and confidence that the visualized image above one's head was the actual deity, then the lights going out and summoning part of the practice was not necessary. The lights going out and making invitations is a support to have faith that the visualized image is not simply one's own imagination. Thus a statement like, "the jñānasattva and the samayasattva are nondual from the beginning, rest in the state of that recognition" is not a dismissal of jnanasattvas, but an assumption that the requisite faith in one's visualization as being more than simply imaginary has already been accomplished.

So whether jnanasattvas are summoned, or already in place, they are not "fictions for beginners".
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Tata1 »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:10 pm I think there may be some confusion about the "summoning" of the jnanasattvas. Even in his book on Ngondro, the previous Kalu R. made the point that if one had total faith and confidence that the visualized image above one's head was the actual deity, then the lights going out and summoning part of the practice was not necessary. The lights going out and making invitations is a support to have faith that the visualized image is not simply one's own imagination. Thus a statement like, "the jñānasattva and the samayasattva are nondual from the beginning, rest in the state of that recognition" is not a dismissal of jnanasattvas, but an assumption that the requisite faith in one's visualization as being more than simply imaginary has already been accomplished.

So whether jnanasattvas are summoned, or already in place, they are not "fictions for beginners".
I dont understand why you insist on trying to teach about vehicles that you have said over and over that you didnt study or practice.
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Tata1 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:17 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:10 pm I think there may be some confusion about the "summoning" of the jnanasattvas. Even in his book on Ngondro, the previous Kalu R. made the point that if one had total faith and confidence that the visualized image above one's head was the actual deity, then the lights going out and summoning part of the practice was not necessary. The lights going out and making invitations is a support to have faith that the visualized image is not simply one's own imagination. Thus a statement like, "the jñānasattva and the samayasattva are nondual from the beginning, rest in the state of that recognition" is not a dismissal of jnanasattvas, but an assumption that the requisite faith in one's visualization as being more than simply imaginary has already been accomplished.

So whether jnanasattvas are summoned, or already in place, they are not "fictions for beginners".
I dont understand why you insist on trying to teach about vehicles that you have said over and over that you didnt study or practice.
"Fictions for beginners" is not higher tantra.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:35 pm
"Fictions for beginners" is not higher tantra.
There are beginners in higher tantra. They usually come from lower tantra.
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Natan »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:10 pm I think there may be some confusion about the "summoning" of the jnanasattvas. Even in his book on Ngondro, the previous Kalu R. made the point that if one had total faith and confidence that the visualized image above one's head was the actual deity, then the lights going out and summoning part of the practice was not necessary. The lights going out and making invitations is a support to have faith that the visualized image is not simply one's own imagination. Thus a statement like, "the jñānasattva and the samayasattva are nondual from the beginning, rest in the state of that recognition" is not a dismissal of jnanasattvas, but an assumption that the requisite faith in one's visualization as being more than simply imaginary has already been accomplished.

So whether jnanasattvas are summoned, or already in place, they are not "fictions for beginners".
Sending lights out and back is part of the main practice of deity yoga. It's not just the wisdom deity. Nyingma people need an education in the Guhyagarbha. Everything branches out from that.
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Natan »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:35 pm
Tata1 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:17 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:10 pm I think there may be some confusion about the "summoning" of the jnanasattvas. Even in his book on Ngondro, the previous Kalu R. made the point that if one had total faith and confidence that the visualized image above one's head was the actual deity, then the lights going out and summoning part of the practice was not necessary. The lights going out and making invitations is a support to have faith that the visualized image is not simply one's own imagination. Thus a statement like, "the jñānasattva and the samayasattva are nondual from the beginning, rest in the state of that recognition" is not a dismissal of jnanasattvas, but an assumption that the requisite faith in one's visualization as being more than simply imaginary has already been accomplished.

So whether jnanasattvas are summoned, or already in place, they are not "fictions for beginners".
I dont understand why you insist on trying to teach about vehicles that you have said over and over that you didnt study or practice.
"Fictions for beginners" is not higher tantra.
Nyingthig has deity yoga too. Every vehicle has everyone in mind Malcolm tends to speak from point of view of Dzogchen tantras. That's his specialty. You won't find any lamas talking like that because they are conditioned by tradition that makes Mahayoga or Anuttarayogatantra the most important element of a retreat.
Last edited by Natan on Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:22 am
Nyingthig has deity yoga too.
Nyinthig cycles have anuyoga practices appended to them, it is true. But they are anuyoga practices of the three roots, where atiyoga is taken as the completion stage.
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Matt J
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Matt J »

Not all of them, IME.
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:22 am You won't find any lamas talking like that because they are conditioned by tradition that makes Mahayoga or Anuttarayogatantra the most important element of a retreat.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:13 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:22 am
Nyingthig has deity yoga too.
Nyinthig cycles have anuyoga practices appended to them, it is true. But they are anuyoga practices of the three roots, where atiyoga is taken as the completion stage.
If you read Sechen Gyaltsab's "Illuminating Jewel Mirror" translated in "Vajra Wisdom" you will see that not all agrees with that view. According to Sechen Gyaltsab there is a Dzogchen development stage. Anyway in most termas the distinction between what is maha, anu and ati is not so sharp. The same deity might have a long sadhana with an invitation of the jnanasattvas and very short sadhanas without. For example Auy Khandros Simhamukha sadhana, which have an invitation of the jnanasattvas but that is according to ChNNR is a anuyoga practice. So it rather complicated and not very clean cut.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:13 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:22 am
Nyingthig has deity yoga too.
Nyinthig cycles have anuyoga practices appended to them, it is true. But they are anuyoga practices of the three roots, where atiyoga is taken as the completion stage.
If you read Sechen Gyaltsab's "Illuminating Jewel Mirror" translated in "Vajra Wisdom" you will see that not all agrees with that view. According to Sechen Gyaltsab there is a Dzogchen development stage. Anyway in most termas the distinction between what is maha, anu and ati is not so sharp. The same deity might have a long sadhana with an invitation of the jnanasattvas and very short sadhanas without. For example Auy Khandros Simhamukha sadhana, which have an invitation of the jnanasattvas but that is according to ChNNR is a anuyoga practice. So it rather complicated and not very clean cut.

/magnus
Hi Magnus:

I addressed this discrepancy above. Some people consider arising without a seed syllable "Dzogchen development," but it is really just instant anuyoga creation stage. In Dzogchen proper, there is no creation and completion stage. In Dzogchen proper, there is no deity to create at all. Not understanding this point, many people mistake terms like "Dzogchen generation" for the actual practice of Dzogchen. You can ascertain this by looking up creation/generation stage in the index of the Tantra Without Syllables. But in particular, the deviations of the nine yānas are explained on pg. 180-181.
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:51 pm
heart wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:13 pm

Nyinthig cycles have anuyoga practices appended to them, it is true. But they are anuyoga practices of the three roots, where atiyoga is taken as the completion stage.
If you read Sechen Gyaltsab's "Illuminating Jewel Mirror" translated in "Vajra Wisdom" you will see that not all agrees with that view. According to Sechen Gyaltsab there is a Dzogchen development stage. Anyway in most termas the distinction between what is maha, anu and ati is not so sharp. The same deity might have a long sadhana with an invitation of the jnanasattvas and very short sadhanas without. For example Auy Khandros Simhamukha sadhana, which have an invitation of the jnanasattvas but that is according to ChNNR is a anuyoga practice. So it rather complicated and not very clean cut.

/magnus
Hi Magnus:

I addressed this discrepancy above. Some people consider arising without a seed syllable "Dzogchen development," but it is really just instant anuyoga creation stage. In Dzogchen proper, there is no creation and completion stage. In Dzogchen proper, there is no deity to create at all. Not understanding this point, many people mistake terms like "Dzogchen generation" for the actual practice of Dzogchen. You can ascertain this by looking up creation/generation stage in the index of the Tantra Without Syllables. But in particular, the deviations of the nine yānas are explained on pg. 180-181.
Hi Malcolm,

Yes I know this is your point of view but I just wanted to add that these things are not always so clear as one would like them to be. The main point isn't really to resolve what methods that are high or low but rather to discover your own nature. The path might look different for different people and also the effect of the methods might be very different for different people. The terma tradition in particular are very rich in methods and as a disciple it might be difficult to see what might actually work for you. If you practice a sadhana in the style of Tulku Urgyen you are actually practicing Trechö, no matter what level of tantra the sadhana comes from. But yes, strictly intellectually, there is no development and completion in Dzogchen. Unless you like Tulku Urgyen consider Tögal the natural development stage and Trechö the completion stage. So it is not so clean cut. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:43 pm But yes, strictly intellectually, there is no development and completion in Dzogchen. Unless you like Tulku Urgyen consider Tögal the natural development stage and Trechö the completion stage. So it is not so clean cut. :smile:
It is extremely clear cut in the tantras and commentaries, as well as in the teaching of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.YMMV. :-)
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Heart wrote: The same deity might have a long sadhana with an invitation of the jnanasattvas and very short sadhanas without.
My point being that with or without invitation, the visualized deity is never dismissed as simply one’s own imagination/samayasattva. If there’s no invitation the presence of jnanasattva is assumed, not dismissed.

*****

I think my disagreement with Malcolm can be summarized as:

Me: whether there’s an invitation or not, the Jnanasattva is understood to be present in the visualization and therefore the visualization is the actual deity.

Malcolm: whether there’s an invitation or not, the jnanasattva is a fiction and not to be taken seriously.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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