Equivalent to thogal

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Matt J
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Matt J »

I doubt you're really in a position to determine whether I or others "have a clue what [we] are talking about." Maybe we should leave the spiritual assessment to one's teachers. And in my mind, the resort the ad hominem is simply an appeal to a fallacy, so quite unnecessary.
Virgo wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:57 pm Unfortunately, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. You need to refer to Malcolm's analogy of electricity, the lightbulb, and filament, etc. and really try to grasp it before you make any more assertions in the thread. When you don't know something just ask questions, don't make assertions please. This makes it much easier on the people you are having the conversation with. Same goes for Matt J.

With respect,

Virgo
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Virgo wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:57 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:13 am I think he’s wrong about it. And I think he’s missing out.

But he’s a big boy and I’m not his dad.
Unfortunately, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. You need to refer to Malcolm's analogy of electricity, the lightbulb, and filament, etc. and really try to grasp it before you make any more assertions in the thread. When you don't know something just ask questions, don't make assertions please. This makes it much easier on the people you are having the conversation with. Same goes for Matt J.

With respect,

Virgo
Um, if you go back in the thread you’ll see that the light switch/lightbulb analogy was originally my contribution.

Just sayin’....
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:31 pm
Virgo wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:57 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:13 am I think he’s wrong about it. And I think he’s missing out.

But he’s a big boy and I’m not his dad.
Unfortunately, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. You need to refer to Malcolm's analogy of electricity, the lightbulb, and filament, etc. and really try to grasp it before you make any more assertions in the thread. When you don't know something just ask questions, don't make assertions please. This makes it much easier on the people you are having the conversation with. Same goes for Matt J.

With respect,

Virgo
Um, if you go back in the thread you’ll see that the light switch/lightbulb analogy was originally my contribution.

Just sayin’....
Yes, which I corrected.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

My basic point was about looking at the issue of betting one’s practice regarding jnanasattvas with a cost/benefit analysis:

What does one gain by being dismissive of their nature if they are imaginary? Or what if they are valid? And what do you lose in both cases?

What does one gain by taking their nature seriously if they are imaginary? Or what if they are valid? And what do you lose in both cases?

By betting they aren’t valid it costs you nothing, but you might be passing up something immensely valuable.

By betting they are valid you are potentially exposing yourself to criticism for being foolish, so there is a cost. But if they are valid you can also have immense benefit.

Is possibly looking foolish worth it for what might be offered? For me, yes. But then again looking foolish is a fairly common occurrence for me. So I don’t care much.

I mean, compare that to the thread about Tibetan cataract surgery!
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:55 pm My basic point was about looking at the issue of betting one’s practice regarding jnanasattvas with a cost/benefit analysis:

What does one gain by being dismissive of their nature if they are imaginary? Or what if they are valid? And what do you lose in both cases?

What does one gain by taking their nature seriously if they are imaginary? Or what if they are valid? And what do you lose in both cases?

By betting they aren’t valid it costs you nothing, but you might be passing up something immensely valuable.

By betting they are valid you are potentially exposing yourself to criticism for being foolish, so there is a cost. But if they are valid you can also have immense benefit.

Is possibly looking foolish worth it for what might be offered? For me, yes. But then again looking foolish is a fairly common occurrence for me. So I don’t care much.

I mean, compare that to the thread about Tibetan cataract surgery!
Pascal’s wager, for those who follow Buddhadharma, is a complete copout.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »


Pascal’s wager, for those who follow Buddhadharma, is a complete copout.
I hadn’t thought about it in those terms, but you’re right. It’s almost the same.

So now how is it a copout??
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:12 am

Pascal’s wager, for those who follow Buddhadharma, is a complete copout.
I hadn’t thought about it in those terms, but you’re right. It’s almost the same.

So now how is it a copout??
It’s sems, not ye shes.

One of the four reliances is rely on ye shes, not concepts.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:17 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:12 am

Pascal’s wager, for those who follow Buddhadharma, is a complete copout.
I hadn’t thought about it in those terms, but you’re right. It’s almost the same.

So now how is it a copout??
It’s sems, not ye shes.
Experientially the spiritual path is the progression from sems to yeshe. So of course you start with sems. So no copout there.

The question at hand is how best to proceed from one to the other. The most direct way available to me is for my sems to merge with the yeshe of a tantric deity. (That’s why the “Yeshe sempa” is not simply my own defiled imagination.) Presto!

How is that a copout? You think it’s cheating?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:30 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:17 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:12 am
I hadn’t thought about it in those terms, but you’re right. It’s almost the same.

So now how is it a copout??
It’s sems, not ye shes.
Experientially the spiritual path is the progression from sems to yeshe. So of course you start with sems. So no copout there.

The question at hand is how best to proceed from one to the other. The most direct way available to me is for my sems to merge with the yeshe of a tantric deity. (That’s why the “Yeshe sempa” is not simply my own defiled imagination.) Presto!

How is that a copout? You think it’s cheating?
The ye shes referred to is your own rang byung ye shes. It doesn’t really come from somewhere outside you.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »


The ye shes referred to is your own rang byung ye shes. It doesn’t really come from somewhere outside you.
And that takes us back to my original light switch and light bulb analogy, where faith and devotion, with mantra recitation, are necessary in order to flip the light switch.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:43 am

The ye shes referred to is your own rang byung ye shes. It doesn’t really come from somewhere outside you.
And that takes us back to my original light switch and light bulb analogy.
The process of invoking the jnanasattva in a sadhana is just a conceptual process. It’s good for beginners. This function is generally abandoned at the level of anuyoga, and especially in ati yoga. If you are not a practitioner of these two inner tantras, I understand why this idea may make you uncomfortable.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:45 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:43 am

The ye shes referred to is your own rang byung ye shes. It doesn’t really come from somewhere outside you.
And that takes us back to my original light switch and light bulb analogy.
The process of invoking the jnanasattva in a sadhana is just a conceptual process. It’s good for beginners. This function is generally abandoned at the level of anuyoga, and especially in ati yoga. If you are not a practitioner of these two inner tantras, I understand why this idea may make you uncomfortable.
It’s true, I try to not go beyond Yoga Tantra.

Well then, Dzogchen forum, Dzogchen rules. With that I’ll withdraw from this thread.

But you never did explain how Pascal’s wager was a copout...
:namaste:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
PeterC
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by PeterC »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:51 am Pascal’s wager
...only really works for Catholicism:
1. Entry requirements for heaven satisfied by low-cost ritual observance, irrespective of state of mind
2. No possibility of gaining direct experience of the truth of the teachings
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

This function is generally abandoned at the level of anuyoga, and especially in ati yoga.
I ran this by someone who is fluent in Tibetan and has done the traditional Nyingma 3 year retreat. He said that as long as a dirty was involved the jnanasattva is invited at the beginning of the sadhana.

It is an academic issue for me since I don’t practice the higher Tantras. But I thought that since this is a public forum the misinformation should be tagged.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Natan
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:17 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:08 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:16 pm I think you may not have a very firm grasp on why we practice the two stages.
And I think your focusing on the second stage misinforms your understanding of the role of the first stage.

But that’s just my perspective based on my present karmic development.
Well, this is a thread in the dzogchen forum. So, dzogchen rules, not Sarma or lower tantra rules. 🙏
Completion stage in certain Anuyoga are not necessarily like sarma
Natan
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Natan »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:55 pm My basic point was about looking at the issue of betting one’s practice regarding jnanasattvas with a cost/benefit analysis:

What does one gain by being dismissive of their nature if they are imaginary? Or what if they are valid? And what do you lose in both cases?

What does one gain by taking their nature seriously if they are imaginary? Or what if they are valid? And what do you lose in both cases?

By betting they aren’t valid it costs you nothing, but you might be passing up something immensely valuable.

By betting they are valid you are potentially exposing yourself to criticism for being foolish, so there is a cost. But if they are valid you can also have immense benefit.

Is possibly looking foolish worth it for what might be offered? For me, yes. But then again looking foolish is a fairly common occurrence for me. So I don’t care much.

I mean, compare that to the thread about Tibetan cataract surgery!
If you are looking for a gain you are in the wrong business. Here you are looking to lose. Lose your emotions. Lose your opinions. Lose your biases. Lose your ego. If you don't lose with Ati lose with Anu etc.
Tata1
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Tata1 »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:11 am
This function is generally abandoned at the level of anuyoga, and especially in ati yoga.
I ran this by someone who is fluent in Tibetan and has done the traditional Nyingma 3 year retreat. He said that as long as a dirty was involved the jnanasattva is invited at the beginning of the sadhana.

It is an academic issue for me since I don’t practice the higher Tantras. But I thought that since this is a public forum the misinformation should be tagged.
Dirty?

You do know that malcom is a translator, has done 3 year retreat, and is authorized to teach by a nyigma terton amongst others right?

I mean, just to point that that kind if appeal to authority doesnt have much ground in this discussion.


Anyway, all the anuyoga practices that i have received and practice dont involve jnanasattva but who knows, maybe its just my teacher.
Natan
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Natan »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:11 am
This function is generally abandoned at the level of anuyoga, and especially in ati yoga.
I ran this by someone who is fluent in Tibetan and has done the traditional Nyingma 3 year retreat. He said that as long as a dirty was involved the jnanasattva is invited at the beginning of the sadhana.

It is an academic issue for me since I don’t practice the higher Tantras. But I thought that since this is a public forum the misinformation should be tagged.
Traditional types tend to go with Mahayoga. In other classes there's no asking. It's a visualization and mantra offering. Why? The wisdom deity is not outside in some other dimension. It's in your heart. Once you know that the former idea is sort of childish. In Anuyoga you send deities everywhere and inhale them back. As if the outside needed a transformation. In Ati you from time to time remind yourself that karmic vision is a mistake.
Natan
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Natan »

Tata1 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:20 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:11 am
This function is generally abandoned at the level of anuyoga, and especially in ati yoga.
I ran this by someone who is fluent in Tibetan and has done the traditional Nyingma 3 year retreat. He said that as long as a dirty was involved the jnanasattva is invited at the beginning of the sadhana.

It is an academic issue for me since I don’t practice the higher Tantras. But I thought that since this is a public forum the misinformation should be tagged.
Dirty?

You do know that malcom is a translator, has done 3 year retreat, and is authorized to teach by a nyigma terton amongst others right?

I mean, just to point that that kind if appeal to authority doesnt have much ground in this discussion.


Anyway, all the anuyoga practices that i have received and practice dont involve jnanasattva but who knows, maybe its just my teacher.
He meant deity
Tata1
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Re: Equivalent to thogal

Post by Tata1 »

Tata1 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:20 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:11 am
This function is generally abandoned at the level of anuyoga, and especially in ati yoga.
I ran this by someone who is fluent in Tibetan and has done the traditional Nyingma 3 year retreat. He said that as long as a dirty was involved the jnanasattva is invited at the beginning of the sadhana.

It is an academic issue for me since I don’t practice the higher Tantras. But I thought that since this is a public forum the misinformation should be tagged.
Dirty?

You do know that malcom is a translator, has done 3 year retreat, and is authorized to teach by a nyigma terton amongst others right?

I mean, just to point that that kind if appeal to authority doesnt have much ground in this discussion.


Anyway, all the anuyoga practices that i have received and practice dont involve jnanasattva but who knows, maybe its just my teacher.
Oh nevermind. Dirty is deity :oops:
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