How does Dzogchen relate to Vajrayana?

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Padmist
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How does Dzogchen relate to Vajrayana?

Post by Padmist »

Is Dzogchen synonymous with Vajrayana? Meaning the entirety of Vajrayana is Dzogchen?

Or is Dzogchen is separate thing, a part of Vajrayana, how much small or big is it part of Vajrayana?

When is Dzogchen practiced in the Vajrayana path? At the beginning of Vajrayana path? Middle? Ending? Throughout the entire Vajrayana path?

or is Vajrayana part of Dzogchen? In which case, do you practice Vajrayana if you're following Dzogchen teachings/path? How often, and when do you practice Vajrayana when doing Dzogchen path?

Do the answers above change if one is taking the Nyingma lineage?
Crazywisdom
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Re: How does Dzogchen relate to Vajrayana?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Yes. Synonymous

Yes. Separate thing.

Yes. Beginning, middle and end.

Yes. You practice dzogchen by practicing Vajrayana.

Yes. Nyingma practice Vajrayana. Anyone who practices Vajrayana is practicing Dzogchen.

And vice versa.

Nonduality. That's the thing.

Togal is the effortless revelation of the dharmakaya.

But it is not for the lazy. It is for the industrious.

Tregcho is for the lazy. But you will probably have to repeat a million mantras

Dzogchen is a Tibetan word and there is no Indian word for it on record.

But it is at once original, the basis of a path, the path itself, and the result of a path.

Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Madhyamaka, Prajnaparamita, and Buddha are synonyms.

Ok. Not being cute. This subject is goddamn deep. Congratulations for asking these questions which probe the main point.

Now spend the rest of your lives to answer them. And there are more and deeper ones which these will open.
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
PeterC
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Re: How does Dzogchen relate to Vajrayana?

Post by PeterC »

Padmist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:48 am Is Dzogchen synonymous with Vajrayana? Meaning the entirety of Vajrayana is Dzogchen?

Or is Dzogchen is separate thing, a part of Vajrayana, how much small or big is it part of Vajrayana?

When is Dzogchen practiced in the Vajrayana path? At the beginning of Vajrayana path? Middle? Ending? Throughout the entire Vajrayana path?

or is Vajrayana part of Dzogchen? In which case, do you practice Vajrayana if you're following Dzogchen teachings/path? How often, and when do you practice Vajrayana when doing Dzogchen path?

Do the answers above change if one is taking the Nyingma lineage?
Dzogchen is Vajrayana but not all Vajrayana is Dzogchen.

What we call ‘nyingma’ is a loose definition of a large number of different practice lineages that share similar foundations and approaches.

The entry to, practice of and ultimately understanding and realIzation of the meaning of these paths come through a qualified guru.
Padmist
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Re: How does Dzogchen relate to Vajrayana?

Post by Padmist »

I'm clear on that now Peter. Thanks to you. :twothumbsup:
Arnoud
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Re: How does Dzogchen relate to Vajrayana?

Post by Arnoud »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:51 am
Yes. You practice dzogchen by practicing Vajrayana.

. Anyone who practices Vajrayana is practicing Dzogchen.
No.
Nonduality. That's the thing.
No.

Giving someone who is starting out wrong information should be avoided.
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kirtu
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Re: How does Dzogchen relate to Vajrayana?

Post by kirtu »

Padmist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:48 am Is Dzogchen synonymous with Vajrayana? Meaning the entirety of Vajrayana is Dzogchen?
...
The standard Nyingma presentation is that there are nine yanas (or vehicles):
Shravaka
Praetyakabuddha
Common Mahayana
the three lower tantras: Kriya, Upa/Charya and Yoga-tantra
then the three higher tantras: Maha, Anu, Ati-yogatantra

From the POV of WOMPT all the three higher tantras are viewed as means of transmutation so from that perspective none of them are considered Dzogchen (although other teachings will say that Ati can be the same as Dzogchen):
pg 325
But it may also be subdivided into nine: the three outer vehicles, those of the Sravakas, Pratyekabuddhas and Bodhisattvas, that liberate from the
origin of suffering; * the three inner vehicles, Kriya, Upayoga and Yoga, related to ascetic practices in the manner of the Vedic tradition;** and
the three secret vehicles, Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga, teaching powerful methods of transmutation. When we request the turning of the
wheel of Dharma, what we are requesting is this Dharma of three vehicles, further divided into nine, which can provide teachings suitable for every
kind of follower.


Dzogchen is not synonymous with the Vajrayana although there is a caveat here that I don't want to mention because you have said that you have not gotten any teaching from a lama.

The New Sarma Schools, Sakya, Kagyu and Gelug all have a four or five or six (or theoretically a seven) level system. Four is what is usually mentioned but you can see others. They just don't have the Nyingma nine vehicle model. And basically the Sarma models are all the same, there are just delineated differently. The four system model explicitly just considers the tantra classes: Kriya, Upa/Charya, Yoga and Anuttarayoga-tantra - even though Tibetan Buddhism itself does recognize the Shravaka and Common Mahayana Vehicles (so theoretically you could follow the Arhat, Praetyakabuddha or the common Mahayana Bodhisattva path).

There are Dzogchen practitioners in the Sarma schools are well, esp. in some of the Kagyu schools.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Padmist
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:12 am

Re: How does Dzogchen relate to Vajrayana?

Post by Padmist »

kirtu wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:19 pm
Padmist wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:48 am Is Dzogchen synonymous with Vajrayana? Meaning the entirety of Vajrayana is Dzogchen?
...
The standard Nyingma presentation is that there are nine yanas (or vehicles):
Shravaka
Praetyakabuddha
Common Mahayana
the three lower tantras: Kriya, Upa/Charya and Yoga-tantra
then the three higher tantras: Maha, Anu, Ati-yogatantra

From the POV of WOMPT all the three higher tantras are viewed as means of transmutation so from that perspective none of them are considered Dzogchen (although other teachings will say that Ati can be the same as Dzogchen):
pg 325
But it may also be subdivided into nine: the three outer vehicles, those of the Sravakas, Pratyekabuddhas and Bodhisattvas, that liberate from the
origin of suffering; * the three inner vehicles, Kriya, Upayoga and Yoga, related to ascetic practices in the manner of the Vedic tradition;** and
the three secret vehicles, Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga, teaching powerful methods of transmutation. When we request the turning of the
wheel of Dharma, what we are requesting is this Dharma of three vehicles, further divided into nine, which can provide teachings suitable for every
kind of follower.


Dzogchen is not synonymous with the Vajrayana although there is a caveat here that I don't want to mention because you have said that you have not gotten any teaching from a lama.

The New Sarma Schools, Sakya, Kagyu and Gelug all have a four or five or six (or theoretically a seven) level system. Four is what is usually mentioned but you can see others. They just don't have the Nyingma nine vehicle model. And basically the Sarma models are all the same, there are just delineated differently. The four system model explicitly just considers the tantra classes: Kriya, Upa/Charya, Yoga and Anuttarayoga-tantra - even though Tibetan Buddhism itself does recognize the Shravaka and Common Mahayana Vehicles (so theoretically you could follow the Arhat, Praetyakabuddha or the common Mahayana Bodhisattva path).

There are Dzogchen practitioners in the Sarma schools are well, esp. in some of the Kagyu schools.

Kirt

Kirt, thanks.

I will be digesting what you said for some time and what a blessing it is that you're here. I looked at your blog and I look forward to digesting the wealth you've put in there.
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