What is Dzogchen?

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KonchogUrgyenNyima
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What is Dzogchen?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

I have realized that I actually have no idea.

Specifically, how does Tantra fit into the Dzogchen path? I know that you will find Tantra in Dzogchen but it seems like Dzogchen is not necessarily Dzogchen. What exactly is the interplay here?

Also, what does the term “Mahamudra” mean in a Dzogchen context? In my practice manual, in the empowerment part of the guru yoga portion of the Longchen Nyingtig Ngondro mentions realization of Mahamudra. How is this different from realizing Ati, which is in the very next empowerment?
Malcolm
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Re: What is Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:57 am I have realized that I actually have no idea.
Excellent. Now find a proper teacher and ignore answers you might find in the fever swamps of the internet.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: What is Dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:57 am I have realized that I actually have no idea.

Specifically, how does Tantra fit into the Dzogchen path? I know that you will find Tantra in Dzogchen but it seems like Dzogchen is not necessarily Dzogchen. What exactly is the interplay here?

Also, what does the term “Mahamudra” mean in a Dzogchen context? In my practice manual, in the empowerment part of the guru yoga portion of the Longchen Nyingtig Ngondro mentions realization of Mahamudra. How is this different from realizing Ati, which is in the very next empowerment?
Just study up on the Nyingma Nine Vehicles presentation of things if you want an idea of where it sits vs. Mahamudra and Sarma traditions, that will tell you what Dzogchen "is" in conventional Tibetan religious terms, as well as clarifying a little bit about how the approach differs from Tantra proper:

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas

In terms of what it really is though, that is definitely something you want from a teacher. It reads like particle physics without a teacher to clarify.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: What is Dzogchen?

Post by Lingpupa »

It might be worth remembering that in some relatively elaborate parts of Nyingma tantra related to the 4 empowerments the term "mahamudra" is used in a way that has no particular connection to its mighty place in for instance Kagyu practice. Context, as ever, is all.
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
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KonchogUrgyenNyima
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Re: What is Dzogchen?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:12 am
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:57 am I have realized that I actually have no idea.
Excellent. Now find a proper teacher and ignore answers you might find in the fever swamps of the internet.
I appreciate the sentiment, although that would mean I would have to ignore this answer as well. To be honest, Malcolm, i was really hoping to benefit from your expertise on this one. I understand if you’re not willing to give it though.
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KonchogUrgyenNyima
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Re: What is Dzogchen?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:27 am
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:57 am I have realized that I actually have no idea.

Specifically, how does Tantra fit into the Dzogchen path? I know that you will find Tantra in Dzogchen but it seems like Dzogchen is not necessarily Dzogchen. What exactly is the interplay here?

Also, what does the term “Mahamudra” mean in a Dzogchen context? In my practice manual, in the empowerment part of the guru yoga portion of the Longchen Nyingtig Ngondro mentions realization of Mahamudra. How is this different from realizing Ati, which is in the very next empowerment?
Just study up on the Nyingma Nine Vehicles presentation of things if you want an idea of where it sits vs. Mahamudra and Sarma traditions, that will tell you what Dzogchen "is" in conventional Tibetan religious terms, as well as clarifying a little bit about how the approach differs from Tantra proper:

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas

In terms of what it really is though, that is definitely something you want from a teacher. It reads like particle physics without a teacher to clarify.
Hello my friend:)
Hope you are doing well.
I took up your advice to contact H.E. Tulku Yeshi Rinpoche and this has proven to be one of the best decisions i have ever made. Thank you for your help in making it. Very meritorious thing you have done my friend.

Do you have any literature you might suggest in studying the nine yanas?
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KonchogUrgyenNyima
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Re: What is Dzogchen?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Lingpupa wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:35 am It might be worth remembering that in some relatively elaborate parts of Nyingma tantra related to the 4 empowerments the term "mahamudra" is used in a way that has no particular connection to its mighty place in for instance Kagyu practice. Context, as ever, is all.
Thank you for your reply. It corroborates feeling i’ve had about the use of the term in my text. Now if only i could figure out what it DOES mean. 🤔
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Re: What is Dzogchen?

Post by Norwegian »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:46 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:12 am
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:57 am I have realized that I actually have no idea.
Excellent. Now find a proper teacher and ignore answers you might find in the fever swamps of the internet.
I appreciate the sentiment, although that would mean I would have to ignore this answer as well. To be honest, Malcolm, i was really hoping to benefit from your expertise on this one. I understand if you’re not willing to give it though.
His answer is actually helpful.

When it comes to this issue, in the position you're in right now, "Less is more" is something that absolutely rings true. Of course, people can give you lots of in depth explanations, and you can read texts and books, and you can spend many, many days (more like years) on this. But...

If you find a qualified Dzogchen teacher to work with, as fresh as possible, you will also (very likely) have a much easier time working with and progressing with Dzogchen, in other words, understanding Dzogchen. And that's the most important thing.

The more you read about Dzogchen from other people, from texts, from books, etc. the more concepts you're adding to your mind. Sure, some may be helpful. But in general they are not. Less is more. So when is the best time to read about Dzogchen? After you've received Dzogchen. And are working with Dzogchen. With a qualified teacher of Dzogchen. Then, reading the right texts, as indicated by your teacher, can be very helpful.
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Re: What is Dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:50 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:27 am
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:57 am I have realized that I actually have no idea.

Specifically, how does Tantra fit into the Dzogchen path? I know that you will find Tantra in Dzogchen but it seems like Dzogchen is not necessarily Dzogchen. What exactly is the interplay here?

Also, what does the term “Mahamudra” mean in a Dzogchen context? In my practice manual, in the empowerment part of the guru yoga portion of the Longchen Nyingtig Ngondro mentions realization of Mahamudra. How is this different from realizing Ati, which is in the very next empowerment?
Just study up on the Nyingma Nine Vehicles presentation of things if you want an idea of where it sits vs. Mahamudra and Sarma traditions, that will tell you what Dzogchen "is" in conventional Tibetan religious terms, as well as clarifying a little bit about how the approach differs from Tantra proper:

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas

In terms of what it really is though, that is definitely something you want from a teacher. It reads like particle physics without a teacher to clarify.
Hello my friend:)
Hope you are doing well.
I took up your advice to contact H.E. Tulku Yeshi Rinpoche and this has proven to be one of the best decisions i have ever made. Thank you for your help in making it. Very meritorious thing you have done my friend.

Do you have any literature you might suggest in studying the nine yanas?
Good to hear from you too;) Hope you're doing well in the new setup.

I'm really glad things went well with Tulku Yeshi, he is something else! You should ask him about Dzogchen too, he'd steer you right and I believe he teaches it.

I don't know of what particular literature you should study in terms of formal texts, others would be more knowledgeable about that. The two books that helped me understand what Dzogchen is in an essential way are Crystal and The Way of Light and Dzogchen:The Self-Perfected State by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

Many other books on Dzogchen tend to be selection of obscure texts (at least obscure without teachings), and not really comprehensible without guidance I don't think. I am sure there is some canonical Nyingma work on the Nine Yanas generally, but I don't know what it is, someone else does for sure. Like I said, that is just understanding it in a Tibetan religious context, without reference to the Bonpo version of course...
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
florin
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Re: What is Dzogchen?

Post by florin »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:12 am
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:57 am I have realized that I actually have no idea.
Excellent. Now find a proper teacher and ignore answers you might find in the fever swamps of the internet.
Indeed. Completely ignored.
Malcolm
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Re: What is Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:12 am
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:57 am I have realized that I actually have no idea.
Excellent. Now find a proper teacher and ignore answers you might find in the fever swamps of the internet.
Indeed. Completely ignored.
Obviously not.
Danny
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Re: What is Dzogchen?

Post by Danny »

Malcolm presents dzogchen in traditional way, with proper explanation of its history etc, as is correct regarding its structure of teaching. Scoring an “own goal” by not being open to the opportunities of advice given would be a self imposed limitation of ones own attitude. So when the advice is, find a teacher with all the qualifications and qualities, one that can in a authentic way, can introduce you to dzogchen, then that is authentic proper advice. Whether or not, how one feels about Malcolm, or his public terse persona, the advice is genuine.
Simple yes?
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