Namkhai Norbu lineage

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Moha
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Moha »

Has Rosa said anything publicly about the future of the DC?
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by dharmafootsteps »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: That is it, more or less. :good:

If one wanted a synecdochic illustration of the nature (and the scope) of the problem, here it goes: How come those presently responsible for the DC still do not know whether Rinpoche left the will, more than two years after his passing?

Not exactly a rhetorical question.
OK, since it's not exactly rhetorical, I'll do my best to answer.

This is purely my personal perspective, but I'd say there's a problem with the question itself, and it's the same problem that is the root of most of the complaints that come from people on this board. That problem is to whom the question is addressed. Who are the people presently responsible for the DC? Again, my opinion, but I'd say there are none. No one is presently responsible for the DC. Or actually, more accurately all of the members are presently responsible for the DC together, but not any individual or board.

There was a single head of the community, and there was no lineage of succession, or chain of command. The only real question in my mind is trying to understand why Rinpoche left us without leadership. He obviously did so very deliberately, he knew what was coming and he knew very well the structure of the community, he put it in place along with his students and son. He was asked many times about the lineage, transmission, continuation etc, but he refused to answer. That's the question us students must work out. It's the question our teacher himself posed to us.

If you look in the statutes of the community, you will see now that without Rinpoche the members themselves are the highest authority. The IG of course have some specific responsibilities, but their role is limited. They don't even have close to the mandate to make the decisions that are being talked about on this board, nor do they necessarily have the skills to do so. They weren't chosen for that reason, so why would they? They've been doing things like working with the gars to make sure that they're legally aligned internationally. Handling business matters, accounting matters etc. They were never there to be the number 2 authority after Rinpoche, inheriting his power in the community, and making the decisions of a master.

So to bring it back to the question, my own opinion: the reason the IG don't know if there is a testament is very simple. Rinpoche never told them he was going to leave one. No one else has told them there is one. So as far as they know there's not, but they can't even answer that definitely. There is Rinpoche's family, there are closer students to Rinpoche, so perhaps there's some individual who does have something from Rinpoche, even though at this stage it seems unlikely. The IG have a limited and specific mandate, they don't consider themselves to be, and don't act as if they are now the ultimate arbiters of the community, or assume that they know more than anyone.

Speculation about a testament is useless, there's no reason to assume that there is one.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: error in replying to post, apologies
Giovanni
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Giovanni »

amanitamusc wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:52 am
amanitamusc wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:39 am
Giovanni wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:40 am There are many instances of termas being effective only during the lifetime of the terton.
For example?
Many of the Kyere Shalkar cycle of terma were explicitly linked to the Vidyadhara and stopped at his paranirvana.
Some actually disappeared physically

This would seem to be an exception,not the rule for most terma.
This may be. The example might not apply. But it might. The reason that Rinpoche left no structure and no clear path might be simple and tough. Few want to think it. He came..he went. His reaching is not to be an institution. Those left must forge their own path. If experienced use what you were given. If less experienced find a teacher that respects Rinpoches legacy.
I am pretty sure that this is a view held by at least two of Rinpoches senior people.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:17 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: That is it, more or less. :good:

If one wanted a synecdochic illustration of the nature (and the scope) of the problem, here it goes: How come those presently responsible for the DC still do not know whether Rinpoche left the will, more than two years after his passing?

Not exactly a rhetorical question.
OK, since it's not exactly rhetorical, I'll do my best to answer.

This is purely my personal perspective, but I'd say there's a problem with the question itself, and it's the same problem that is the root of most of the complaints that come from people on this board. That problem is to whom the question is addressed. Who are the people presently responsible for the DC? Again, my opinion, but I'd say there are none. No one is presently responsible for the DC. Or actually, more accurately all of the members are presently responsible for the DC together, but not any individual or board.

There was a single head of the community, and there was no lineage of succession, or chain of command. The only real question in my mind is trying to understand why Rinpoche left us without leadership. He obviously did so very deliberately, he knew what was coming and he knew very well the structure of the community, he put it in place along with his students and son. He was asked many times about the lineage, transmission, continuation etc, but he refused to answer. That's the question us students must work out. It's the question our teacher himself posed to us.

If you look in the statutes of the community, you will see now that without Rinpoche the members themselves are the highest authority. The IG of course have some specific responsibilities, but their role is limited. They don't even have close to the mandate to make the decisions that are being talked about on this board, nor do they necessarily have the skills to do so. They weren't chosen for that reason, so why would they? They've been doing things like working with the gars to make sure that they're legally aligned internationally. Handling business matters, accounting matters etc. They were never there to be the number 2 authority after Rinpoche, inheriting his power in the community, and making the decisions of a master.

So to bring it back to the question, my own opinion: the reason the IG don't know if there is a testament is very simple. Rinpoche never told them he was going to leave one. No one else has told them there is one. So as far as they know there's not, but they can't even answer that definitely. There is Rinpoche's family, there are closer students to Rinpoche, so perhaps there's some individual who does have something from Rinpoche, even though at this stage it seems unlikely. The IG have a limited and specific mandate, they don't consider themselves to be, and don't act as if they are now the ultimate arbiters of the community, or assume that they know more than anyone.

Speculation about a testament is useless, there's no reason to assume that there is one.
Thank you for replying.

One problem here is that, as Johnny pointed out, the IDG are already acting as if they were very much in charge -- in order to, say, organise the meetings with Yeshi and instructors, they must have already taken the helm, even if only provisionally. Btw, I would really like to see them make as clear a statement about how they see their role as your post -- a statement about the situation as it is and its ramifications for our future. We would all benefit from it.

The will issue, however, is in a sense much simpler than you are making it to be. A great master who also happens to be the head of a major religious institution passes away. Then those close to him, or those who hold some power in the institution (and of course the IDG have always held some power in the DC, even if indeed theirs was a power of a different order when compared to Rinpoche's) make sure what his final instructions regarding the future of the institution, transmission, etc were.

After all, by "will" we do not mean what Rinpoche wanted to do with books, statues or Hawaiian shirts. We mean the DC in its diverse forms.

So those who feel responsible for the institution -- and as you point out, we all are, but of course the obligation is and feels vastly different when it comes to, say, Adriano, than it is and feels to those of us who joined the DC mere months or years before Rinpoche's passing, and those of us who happen to be in the IDG are of course called upon too in a more distinct voice, a fact which they have in any case already recognised -- ask those who were with Rinpoche in his final days, the family, the heart sons/daughters, and all who could be in the know. Is there anything more important that we as the DC presently need to know?

And yes, unless people refuse to answer, then there will be an answer to the question (and, if the answer is positive, we will have the will too). If people refuse to answer, or refuse to share the will with the DC (but why would they? Why would they not tell the DC what Rinpoche's plans regarding the DC were?), then the DC members need to be informed about it.

The situation as it is invites accusations ("You did not care enough to ask around!") or speculation ("Ah, so family/inner circle/the IDG is hiding something from us. What is it?"), and neither accusations or speculation are what the DC needs.
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Giovanni
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Giovanni »

I see that this is a problem for those in far off lands. But really it is not hard to understand. Just hard to be comfortable with.
There is no secret plan. No family circle in control. The show is over. The acrobats are gone. A great light has passed. We must find our own way through. It is scaring. But we have been given something.
fckw
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by fckw »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:17 am There was a single head of the community, and there was no lineage of succession, or chain of command. The only real question in my mind is trying to understand why Rinpoche left us without leadership. He obviously did so very deliberately, he knew what was coming and he knew very well the structure of the community, he put it in place along with his students and son. He was asked many times about the lineage, transmission, continuation etc, but he refused to answer. That's the question us students must work out. It's the question our teacher himself posed to us.
Why not just let the lineage die then? Would it be so bad, after all? Have people got attached too much to a specific organization to let go of their identity as belonging to that particular organization? Organizations come and go, there is no permanence in any lineage whatsoever. Same is true even for Buddhism as an endeavor.

I've seen it happen before. Some teachers install their sons (never their daughters...), but in most cases the spirit is just gone and the sons are simply not up to the level of what the father was. Others try to install a "democratic board", and usually, after some time, the schism happens when rivaling groups try getting a hold on the money and power. Others again try to install a single successor, usually a person they nominated for that position, and while this sometimes actually works, more often than not it fails, because other long-time members are too envious and don't fully give their support and acceptance to the nominated one.
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by dharmafootsteps »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:21 am
dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:17 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: That is it, more or less. :good:

If one wanted a synecdochic illustration of the nature (and the scope) of the problem, here it goes: How come those presently responsible for the DC still do not know whether Rinpoche left the will, more than two years after his passing?

Not exactly a rhetorical question.
OK, since it's not exactly rhetorical, I'll do my best to answer.

This is purely my personal perspective, but I'd say there's a problem with the question itself, and it's the same problem that is the root of most of the complaints that come from people on this board. That problem is to whom the question is addressed. Who are the people presently responsible for the DC? Again, my opinion, but I'd say there are none. No one is presently responsible for the DC. Or actually, more accurately all of the members are presently responsible for the DC together, but not any individual or board.

There was a single head of the community, and there was no lineage of succession, or chain of command. The only real question in my mind is trying to understand why Rinpoche left us without leadership. He obviously did so very deliberately, he knew what was coming and he knew very well the structure of the community, he put it in place along with his students and son. He was asked many times about the lineage, transmission, continuation etc, but he refused to answer. That's the question us students must work out. It's the question our teacher himself posed to us.

If you look in the statutes of the community, you will see now that without Rinpoche the members themselves are the highest authority. The IG of course have some specific responsibilities, but their role is limited. They don't even have close to the mandate to make the decisions that are being talked about on this board, nor do they necessarily have the skills to do so. They weren't chosen for that reason, so why would they? They've been doing things like working with the gars to make sure that they're legally aligned internationally. Handling business matters, accounting matters etc. They were never there to be the number 2 authority after Rinpoche, inheriting his power in the community, and making the decisions of a master.

So to bring it back to the question, my own opinion: the reason the IG don't know if there is a testament is very simple. Rinpoche never told them he was going to leave one. No one else has told them there is one. So as far as they know there's not, but they can't even answer that definitely. There is Rinpoche's family, there are closer students to Rinpoche, so perhaps there's some individual who does have something from Rinpoche, even though at this stage it seems unlikely. The IG have a limited and specific mandate, they don't consider themselves to be, and don't act as if they are now the ultimate arbiters of the community, or assume that they know more than anyone.

Speculation about a testament is useless, there's no reason to assume that there is one.
Thank you for replying.

One problem here is that, as Johnny pointed out, the IDG are already acting as if they were very much in charge -- in order to, say, organise the meetings with Yeshi and instructors, they must have already taken the helm, even if only provisionally. Btw, I would really like to see them make as clear a statement about how they see their role as your post -- a statement about the situation as it is and its ramifications for our future. We would all benefit from it.
I know some of them personally, have talked to them about the issues facing us. I don't personally see them as having taken the helm, and none of the conversations I've had have led me to believe that they feel like they have or intend to do that. Quite the contrary, they're trying to closely stick within the remit of their mandate.

If the IG were to take the helm there are people who are more active within the community that would speak out against them, as there is no indication who should take the helm. Should it be the IG, the president of IDC, the president of ATIF, the college of Gekos, the instructors, an arbitrary list of who are the most "senior" students? You could certainly make a case for some of those people more than others, but it's by no means clear. Rinpoche deliberately left us with a very non-heirarchical organisation. If any one of those people or groups took charge others in the community would object, as Rinpoche didn't give any of them more authority that any other, in terms of taking on the spiritual decisions and overall charge of the community.

As far a the meetings with Yeshi. He proposed them himself as he was sick of people asking the same questions over and over individually. He wanted to get it all out of the way once. The IG facilitated the meeting, because facilitation is exactly the kind of thing that is their role. They didn't lead however.
treehuggingoctopus wrote: The will issue, however, is in a sense much simpler than you are making it to be. A great master who also happens to be the head of a major religious institution passes away. Then those close to him, or those who hold some power in the institution (and of course the IDG have always held some power in the DC, even if indeed theirs was a power of a different order when compared to Rinpoche's) make sure what his final instructions regarding the future of the institution, transmission, etc were.

After all, by "will" we do not mean what Rinpoche wanted to do with books, statues or Hawaiian shirts. We mean the DC in its diverse forms.
As I said, the fact that we don't know is by Rinpoche's design, not the fault of the people mentioned above. He was asked, he refused to answer. I trust Rinpoche, I trust that there's a good reason for that, but presently I don't know why.
treehuggingoctopus wrote: So those who feel responsible for the institution -- and as you point out, we all are, but of course the obligation is and feels vastly different when it comes to, say, Adriano, than it is and feels to those of us who joined the DC mere months or years before Rinpoche's passing, and those of us who happen to be in the IDG are of course called upon too in a more distinct voice, a fact which they have in any case already recognised -- ask those who were with Rinpoche in his final days, the family, the heart sons/daughters, and all who could be in the know. Is there anything more important that we as the DC presently need to know?
Having had plenty of interaction with these people, I am comfortable in the knowledge that there's nothing important I haven't been told personally, and that the community at large hasn't also been told. If there is something important it's not in the hands of the community, but rather one or two individuals who would presumably be either his family, or others very close to him. If such a thing exists I'm sure they have a good reason for not releasing it, such as Rinpoche's own instructions. The one thing I have observed without fail in all the people who were close to Rinpoche, and hold some sort of position in the community, is that they are trying really really hard to follow his instructions precisely. As you point out, I'm sure the obligation they feel is vastly different. As is the sense of loss, and perhaps even confusion. This was what they completely dedicated their lives to. I have zero suspicion that anyone is keeping anything back against Rinpoche's own wishes. And beyond that, having heard directly from some of the closest people to him, I personally don't think there is any other information to hold back anyway.
treehuggingoctopus wrote: And yes, unless people refuse to answer, then there will be an answer to the question (and, if the answer is positive, we will have the will too). If people refuse to answer, or refuse to share the will with the DC (but why would they? Why would they not tell the DC what Rinpoche's plans regarding the DC were?), then the DC members need to be informed about it.

The situation as it is invites accusations ("You did not care enough to ask around!") or speculation ("Ah, so family/inner circle/the IDG is hiding something from us. What is it?"), and neither accusations or speculation are what the DC needs.
To reiterate, my view is that I, and we, have been told what there is to know, which is really not much. Anger or frustration can only come from assuming there is more, that there are answers that people are refusing to give. I don't think there are any such answers. Accusations and speculation are merely coming from natural human tenancies, people very much want there to be more, and want someone to blame but there isn't anyone who can offer what they're seeking.
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by dharmafootsteps »

fckw wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:25 am
dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:17 am There was a single head of the community, and there was no lineage of succession, or chain of command. The only real question in my mind is trying to understand why Rinpoche left us without leadership. He obviously did so very deliberately, he knew what was coming and he knew very well the structure of the community, he put it in place along with his students and son. He was asked many times about the lineage, transmission, continuation etc, but he refused to answer. That's the question us students must work out. It's the question our teacher himself posed to us.
Why not just let the lineage die then? Would it be so bad, after all? Have people got attached too much to a specific organization to let go of their identity as belonging to that particular organization? Organizations come and go, there is no permanence in any lineage whatsoever. Same is true even for Buddhism as an endeavor.

I've seen it happen before. Some teachers install their sons (never their daughters...), but in most cases the spirit is just gone and the sons are simply not up to the level of what the father was. Others try to install a "democratic board", and usually, after some time, the schism happens when rivaling groups try getting a hold on the money and power. Others again try to install a single successor, usually a person they nominated for that position, and while this sometimes actually works, more often than not it fails, because other long-time members are too envious and don't fully give their support and acceptance to the nominated one.
The community is the community of the students of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, we are as active as ever. Thanks to COVID, more so. There are constant activities all over the world. The community may die when Rinpoche's last student dies, but for now that remains to be seen. I don't think that was Rinpoche's intention, even if I don't know what his intention was.

I'm not sure what you mean "let the lineage die", that seems to imply there's something do (or not do) in order to let it die. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but that's not really a question in my mind, it's a long way off. We received the instructions, we have a job to do for many many years, to continue to practice and study those instructions and collaborate with our vajra siblings. To me, letting it die implies giving all that up, which means giving up our samaya.

This doesn't mean the institutions won't shrink, some may close, some physical centers may close, that's OK, as you say they're impermanent. But my vajra brothers and sisters will be my vajra brothers and sisters for the rest of my life, and I will practice and collaborate with them as I was instructed to do.

I terms of the continuation of the lineage, if nobody has the capacity currently to transmit the specific teachings (which I don't believe), there's no reason why someone couldn't develop it in the next decades.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Jeff H »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:55 am The community is the community of the students of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, we are as active as ever. Thanks to COVID, more so. There are constant activities all over the world. The community may die when Rinpoche's last student dies, but for now that remains to be seen. I don't think that was Rinpoche's intention, even if I don't know what his intention was.

I'm not sure what you mean "let the lineage die", that seems to imply there's something do (or not do) in order to let it die. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but that's not really a question in my mind, it's a long way off. We received the instructions, we have a job to do for many many years, to continue to practice and study those instructions and collaborate with our vajra siblings. To me, letting it die implies giving all that up, which means giving up our samaya.

This doesn't mean the institutions won't shrink, some may close, some physical centers may close, that's OK, as you say they're impermanent. But my vajra brothers and sisters will be my vajra brothers and sisters for the rest of my life, and I will practice and collaborate with them as I was instructed to do.

I terms of the continuation of the lineage, if nobody has the capacity currently to transmit the specific teachings (which I don't believe), there's no reason why someone couldn't develop it in the next decades.
I just want to say that this post inspired me to renew for 2021. I am very much a late-comer to the IDG. I never met ChNN (although I did meet Malcolm once and that was pretty powerful). I received DI through the last three world-wide transmissions Rinpoche gave and attended his last retreat online (I think it was the last: Dec 2017). I am minimally connected to people in the IDG, even at my Gar (Tsegyalgar East). But I have the resources and I'm applying them. That really is the point.
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
amanitamusc
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by amanitamusc »

Giovanni wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:55 am
amanitamusc wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:52 am
amanitamusc wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:39 am
For example?
Many of the Kyere Shalkar cycle of terma were explicitly linked to the Vidyadhara and stopped at his paranirvana.
Some actually disappeared physically

This would seem to be an exception,not the rule for most terma.
This may be. The example might not apply. But it might. The reason that Rinpoche left no structure and no clear path might be simple and tough. Few want to think it. He came..he went. His reaching is not to be an institution. Those left must forge their own path. If experienced use what you were given. If less experienced find a teacher that respects Rinpoches legacy.
I am pretty sure that this is a view held by at least two of Rinpoches senior people.
Your statements sow doubt on the efficacy of Rinpoches Teachings now that he is gone.This dangerous and completely absurd.
Giovanni
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Giovanni »

As I said not popular 🙂 But this is not just my interpretation of things. Absurd? You don’t think that the whole situation is absurd? You should see it close up 😂
amanitamusc
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by amanitamusc »

Giovanni wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:39 am As I said not popular 🙂 But this is not just my interpretation of things. Absurd? You don’t think that the whole situation is absurd? You should see it close up 😂
Not popular and not true.Rinpoches teaches are alive did not pass with him.Just a plain fact. If one is a student of Rinpoche.One knows.
Who are you, seeing what up close?Care to enlighten us at to what exactly you are seeing?Such an air of mysterious unfounded bullshit. :zzz: Oh and welcome to Dharma wheel.
Giovanni
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Giovanni »

As Loppon Malcolm said to you on October 15 a lot of people are in denial about what is actually happening.
This is true even when is in daily touch in person with the main people. It must be very confusing to try to make sense from a different continent.
As Elio has said many many times before he got ill the way to honor Rinpoche is to put our energy into what we have. Not to imagine a different reality. Or to cling.
amanitamusc
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by amanitamusc »

Giovanni wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:00 am As Loppon Malcolm said to you on October 15 a lot of people are in denial about what is actually happening.
This is true even when is in daily touch in person with the main people. It must be very confusing to try to make sense from a different continent.
As Elio has said many many times before he got ill the way to honor Rinpoche is to put our energy into what we have. Not to imagine a different reality. Or to cling.
You plainly said Rinpoche's terma is no longer effecticve now that he has passed and you said this is very common with terma teachings.This is bullshit.This is a lie and breach of samaya if you are a student of Rinpoche's.
PeterC
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by PeterC »

Giovanni wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:55 am This may be. The example might not apply. But it might. The reason that Rinpoche left no structure and no clear path might be simple and tough. Few want to think it. He came..he went. His reaching is not to be an institution. Those left must forge their own path. If experienced use what you were given. If less experienced find a teacher that respects Rinpoches legacy.
I am pretty sure that this is a view held by at least two of Rinpoches senior people.

This is speculation. I think it’s helpful to look at what he actually said, and what he didn’t say.

Remember that there are pretty standard rules about who can offer reading transmissions and empowerments. If we think there should be a *different* treatment for Rinpoche’s teachings then we need an explicit reason to think that.

What he did say:

The DC exists to support, organizationally, the community of his students who want to practice Dzogchen
If you want to follow Rinpoche you should do so within this community. (He was explicit on this when he was alive.)
The DC is organized around the different functions/activities necessary to support the community
If you want to practice his Longsal terma cycle you should have received either the root empowerment or the lung etc. for the specific teachings
We have to rely on and support each other. (How many hundreds of times did he say variations of this?)

What he did not say, ever:

None of his students can ever transmit his teachings
The DC is the arbiter of who can/cannot transmit his teachings
Yeshi is the only person that can transmit his teachings
His own termas have a time limit
The empowerments and lungs from his teachings follow rules any different from the normal ones for Nyingma transmissions
The DC, SSI etc should all continue their work forever as some kind of institution
The DC, SSI etc should all shut down after he passes
His passing is a test of some kind
What the role of the DC should be after his passing
His students should continue doing what they’ve received from him for the rest of their lives
His students should find other teachers when he passes
His students should not find other teachers when he passes
There is some will or letter somewhere that lays out a secret plan


To me this seems very simple. Instead of speculating about his intentions, look at what he did and didn’t actually say. And in the absence of instructions to the contrary, just assume that he would expect his students to handle his teachings as they would any other cycle. I think part of the issue here is that many of the DC members have not really studied much with other teachers, lack perspective on this, and in some cases have some very strange ideas about what they endlessly refer to as The Transmission.
Giovanni
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Giovanni »

amanitamusc wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:20 am
Giovanni wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:00 am As Loppon Malcolm said to you on October 15 a lot of people are in denial about what is actually happening.
This is true even when is in daily touch in person with the main people. It must be very confusing to try to make sense from a different continent.
As Elio has said many many times before he got ill the way to honor Rinpoche is to put our energy into what we have. Not to imagine a different reality. Or to cling.
You plainly said Rinpoche's terma is no longer effecticve now that he has passed and you said this is very common with terma teachings.This is bullshit.This is a lie and breach of samaya if you are a student of Rinpoche's.
I said one speculation common at the moment among some senior DC members. I did not say this applied now. I said it might not. I did not say that the withdraw of terma was common. I said it happened.
Clearly you are unhappy. You seem to be angry. I think dialogue with you is not possible right now. I wish you well.
Giovanni
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Giovanni »

Peter C. You are correct. This is speculation, and maybe that is not helping. It is also true that many DC students have no real experience out of DC. This leads to fear and refusal to think clearly for some.
Iam thinking my input is not helpful. We are all trying to make sense.
amanitamusc
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by amanitamusc »

Giovanni wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:38 am
Iam thinking my input is not helpful.
Not at all.
amanitamusc
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by amanitamusc »

Giovanni wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:31 am
amanitamusc wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:20 am
Giovanni wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:00 am As Loppon Malcolm said to you on October 15 a lot of people are in denial about what is actually happening.
This is true even when is in daily touch in person with the main people. It must be very confusing to try to make sense from a different continent.
As Elio has said many many times before he got ill the way to honor Rinpoche is to put our energy into what we have. Not to imagine a different reality. Or to cling.
You plainly said Rinpoche's terma is no longer effecticve now that he has passed and you said this is very common with terma teachings.This is bullshit.This is a lie and breach of samaya if you are a student of Rinpoche's.
I said one speculation common at the moment among some senior DC members. I did not say this applied now. I said it might not. I did not say that the withdraw of terma was common. I said it happened.
Clearly you are unhappy. You seem to be angry. I think dialogue with you is not possible right now. I wish you well.
This is exactly what you said.
"There are many instances of termas being effective only during the lifetime of the terton. This does not mean fault with terton ot terma. But may be the times. We are not helpless. We need not wait for leftovers to fall into our hands.
If DC not longer serves then we should find what does. Something like that.
I cannot imagine Rinpoche when young just looking to the heavens and sighing in such a situation. He would surely have put on his walking shoes and sought teachings".
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:22 am This is speculation. I think it’s helpful to look at what he actually said, and what he didn’t say.

Remember that there are pretty standard rules about who can offer reading transmissions and empowerments. If we think there should be a *different* treatment for Rinpoche’s teachings then we need an explicit reason to think that.

What he did say:

The DC exists to support, organizationally, the community of his students who want to practice Dzogchen
If you want to follow Rinpoche you should do so within this community. (He was explicit on this when he was alive.)
The DC is organized around the different functions/activities necessary to support the community
If you want to practice his Longsal terma cycle you should have received either the root empowerment or the lung etc. for the specific teachings
We have to rely on and support each other. (How many hundreds of times did he say variations of this?)

What he did not say, ever:

None of his students can ever transmit his teachings
The DC is the arbiter of who can/cannot transmit his teachings
Yeshi is the only person that can transmit his teachings
His own termas have a time limit
The empowerments and lungs from his teachings follow rules any different from the normal ones for Nyingma transmissions
The DC, SSI etc should all continue their work forever as some kind of institution
The DC, SSI etc should all shut down after he passes
His passing is a test of some kind
What the role of the DC should be after his passing
His students should continue doing what they’ve received from him for the rest of their lives
His students should find other teachers when he passes
His students should not find other teachers when he passes
There is some will or letter somewhere that lays out a secret plan


To me this seems very simple. Instead of speculating about his intentions, look at what he did and didn’t actually say. And in the absence of instructions to the contrary, just assume that he would expect his students to handle his teachings as they would any other cycle. I think part of the issue here is that many of the DC members have not really studied much with other teachers, lack perspective on this, and in some cases have some very strange ideas about what they endlessly refer to as The Transmission.
This! Quite frankly this is the only post that makes this thread somewhat worth it. :good: Really thank you for this post.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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