Namkhai Norbu lineage

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PeterC
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by PeterC »

Giovanni wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:38 am Peter C. You are correct. This is speculation, and maybe that is not helping. It is also true that many DC students have no real experience out of DC. This leads to fear and refusal to think clearly for some.
Iam thinking my input is not helpful. We are all trying to make sense.
Not at all - discussion always helps. The worst thing that could happen now is a breakdown of communication and a buildup of suspicion and resentment. Sometimes people here might be a bit forthright with their views, myself included, but you should not take that personally. Everyone cares a lot about Rinpoche’s teachings, understands that this is a difficult situation, and wants to find a solution. Where they differ is on what problem exactly they’re trying to solve.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:39 amAs I said, the fact that we don't know is by Rinpoche's design, not the fault of the people mentioned above. He was asked, he refused to answer. I trust Rinpoche, I trust that there's a good reason for that, but presently I don't know why.
dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:39 amAs far a the meetings with Yeshi. He proposed them himself as he was sick of people asking the same questions over and over individually. He wanted to get it all out of the way once.


Once again, thank you for your reply.

It would be very, very good if such information came to us through official channels. It has not, and many stories are circulating. I happen to have heard quite different takes on both our not knowing and the story behind the first of the recent two meetings with Yeshi. I have got them from people who have been in the DC for some thirty years. They were close to Rinpoche, and to say that they are dedicated to him, his teachings and the DC would be a massive understatement. And I know them fairly well, and I am convinced they are not trying to deceive me.

I am not saying their version is right and yours is wrong, of course. I just do not know. The confusion, or at least a part of it, could have been avoided had we been given a clear statement early on (which of course might have been more than difficult at that time). But even now such a statement would clearly help many of us.
dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:39 amHaving had plenty of interaction with these people, I am comfortable in the knowledge that there's nothing important I haven't been told personally, and that the community at large hasn't also been told. If there is something important it's not in the hands of the community, but rather one or two individuals who would presumably be either his family, or others very close to him. If such a thing exists I'm sure they have a good reason for not releasing it, such as Rinpoche's own instructions. The one thing I have observed without fail in all the people who were close to Rinpoche, and hold some sort of position in the community, is that they are trying really really hard to follow his instructions precisely. As you point out, I'm sure the obligation they feel is vastly different. As is the sense of loss, and perhaps even confusion. This was what they completely dedicated their lives to.
I am absolutely convinced that those who were close to Rinpoche, or the IDG, are doing nothing but their very best -- which does not mean that the decisions they are making are necessarily correct, of course. But I have never doubted their intentions.

Actually, if I post here and criticise and complain, it is because I would like the DC to thrive above all for the sake of those who have really dedicated all their lives to it. Some people in the thread suggest we should sever our attachments to institutions and dead masters, and move on. This strikes me as a rather insensitive, and perhaps very misleading, way of putting it. Of course Longsal could be, theoretically at least, preserved outside of the DC, of course we can all go on practising "on our own" (in theory, at least), of course Rinpoche has not vanished into thin air, etc. But institutions are not really optional. If one wants to practice the Dharma, one needs them, just as much as one needs the sangha. Some of us are already practising with one or more other sanghas (I have been following other teachers for quite a few years now) and while we would not be happy at all to see the DC slowly die down and dwindle into nothingness, we are taken care of, and will not be quite homeless if it happens. Those who have really given all they have to the DC are in an entirely different situation. They do not deserve to be abandoned with a shrug.
PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:09 amThe worst thing that could happen now is a breakdown of communication and a buildup of suspicion and resentment. Sometimes people here might be a bit forthright with their views, myself included, but you should not take that personally. Everyone cares a lot about Rinpoche’s teachings, understands that this is a difficult situation, and wants to find a solution. Where they differ is on what problem exactly they’re trying to solve.
+1
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fckw
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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I find it heartbreaking to observe how any sort of religious or spiritual community goes through the same stages of denial and confusion whenever their leader dies. It happens over and over and over and over again. But not a single of those organizations ever bothers to look at how others have dealt with it and tries to learn and do it better. All they always do is to stare in disbelief and frustration at the void, the space left unfilled by the absent teacher now. And then they start battling over irrelevant stuff. Really, it happens all the time.

The established churches have found some ways how to solve the problem, e.g. the Böns have some semi-democratic process how to elect the next HH Menri Trizin, the catholic church has some obscure process to nominate the next pope and so on. But most smaller organizations never get to such a stage, and then the confusion and frustration prevails. Some members try hard to keep everything together, typically by trying to motivate everyone to stick to what the teacher actually said or meant. Others point out that it's quite unclear what the teacher actually said or meant, at least much less clear than what the first group claims. And, unfortunately, it turns out that they are right. Unless the teacher has left a written testament that organizes everything in minute detail, nobody knows for sure. Just study the life of the buddha himself. The first council was some time after his death. But already at the second council the schism had begun, and people had differing views on what the buddha really had wanted or meant. Some just leave the organization silently and go to other teachers - and maybe they are the ones best off.

Sometimes I tend to think that some of the great teachers intentionally don't minutely manage everything after they are gone. It's one of the last lessons they teach their students. And the students - at least in the West, that is - unfortunately nearly never get it, nearly always they fall into the trap set out for them. And it's always the same trap. They could just observe any similar organization that goes through the same process and learn from them, but they never do so. It's a highly interesting question, why they don't.

Following Namkhai Norbu just from afar I never had the impression that he was particularly interested in keeping a large organizations alive. He did out of necessity, because he genuinely wanted people to realize the essence of the teachings, in whatever way would work for them. And the organization was just a vehicle to support that process, but the organization was relatively unimportant, what was important was whether people would actually get the realization or not. We should not confuse the sangha with the organization, but that's exactly where people get stuck. Sangha brothers and sisters, yes, they are important. But that is not the same as keeping a large organization alive. Where there is organization there is power and money. And where there is power and money there is dissent. This is how it has always been, everywhere, universally. Closing one's eyes to that fact is naive. The best way how to organize many people around power and money that humans ever came up with is democracy. Democracy however is poorly aligned with guru lineage. The latter is inherently elitist (only one lineage holder can exist at any given time), the former is inherently anti-elitist (nobody has a special status over anyone else, and every vote counts equally). So, here's the underlying conflict in simple terms.

We have to accept that nothing we could ever do can replace someone like Namkhai Norbu. He was like a bright star at the sky, how could anyone simply replace a bright star? It's impossible. Yes, there might exist other stars, but they are not the same. We need to appreciate the star while s/he is shining, and once s/he is gone, then we need to learn to live with the fact, that our North Star no longer is here to provide guidance. At least not in the same, easily visible form. And then we need to go on. It's tough, it's painful, but what else is there to be done?

Buddha Shakyamuni famously said: "Be a lamp unto yourself." I think he really meant it.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:12 amBut institutions are not really optional.
This is where I disagree. Most mahasiddhas did not build up large institutions. Some maybe did, but many did not. Institutions are optional, they are not needed.

What cannot be done away with in contrast is the direct contact with a teacher.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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fckw wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:59 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:12 amBut institutions are not really optional.
This is where I disagree. Most mahasiddhas did not build up large institutions. Some maybe did, but many did not. Institutions are optional, they are not needed.

What cannot be done away with in contrast is the direct contact with a teacher.
Yes, but most mahasiddhas didn't live in 21st century world, did they? Ofc it is better to go without institutions, however once a teacher has so many students as Rinpoche has, then it is indispensable to create some structure. When it is a small village that is close to him and follows his teachings somewhere in Tibet where they culturally know how to behave. Sure, no problem without institution. When it is a group of thousands of westerners who are the first dharma generation and know next to nothing and don't have the cultural experience how to deal with dharma and teacher...

Not to mention institutions can make many things easier. Ofc they also bring a lot of problems.

So while they are not necessary, DC as an institution was basically inevitable given the circumstances.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:09 pm Yes, but most mahasiddhas didn't live in 21st century world, did they? Ofc it is better to go without institutions, however once a teacher has so many students as Rinpoche has, then it is indispensable to create some structure. When it is a small village that is close to him and follows his teachings somewhere in Tibet where they culturally know how to behave. Sure, no problem without institution. When it is a group of thousands of westerners who are the first dharma generation and know next to nothing and don't have the cultural experience how to deal with dharma and teacher...

Not to mention institutions can make many things easier. Ofc they also bring a lot of problems.

So while they are not necessary, DC as an institution was basically inevitable given the circumstances.
Why should a teacher have so many students in the first place that he can no longer follow them all? That's exactly the institutionalism of every religion ever, it's exactly the point where the teachings become watered down. The teacher cannot follow the students anymore, so he has to create an organization that does this in his place, and then he has to start bothering with co-teachers, publications, money and so on. This is a decision, not a necessity.

Some teachers prefer to head down that path - Namkhai Norbu himself did. In consequence, they leave large organizations behind which go through the pains that the community is now experiencing. Other teachers in contrast (like various Nyingma masters) prefer not to do so, and they end up with only very few students and often no big name. Also think about it from the perspective of Yeshi. Was he ever given a real choice not to be in the position he is by his birth as the son of Namkhai Norbu? Without now blaming NN, one could argue that giving him any responsibility whatsoever in that large organization was not entirely fair towards his own son, because how could the son ever really say "no" to it, without disappointing many people, right?

Either choice does not say anything about the quality of their teachings or the level of realization gained by their students. But the point is really: Organizations are not required, not even in the 21st century, they are simply a choice. And they have big downsides, besides their upsides.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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fckw wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:22 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:09 pm Yes, but most mahasiddhas didn't live in 21st century world, did they? Ofc it is better to go without institutions, however once a teacher has so many students as Rinpoche has, then it is indispensable to create some structure. When it is a small village that is close to him and follows his teachings somewhere in Tibet where they culturally know how to behave. Sure, no problem without institution. When it is a group of thousands of westerners who are the first dharma generation and know next to nothing and don't have the cultural experience how to deal with dharma and teacher...

Not to mention institutions can make many things easier. Ofc they also bring a lot of problems.

So while they are not necessary, DC as an institution was basically inevitable given the circumstances.
Why should a teacher have so many students in the first place that he can no longer follow them all? That's exactly the institutionalism of every religion ever, it's exactly the point where the teachings become watered down. The teacher cannot follow the students anymore, so he has to create an organization that does this in his place, and then he has to start bothering with co-teachers, publications, money and so on. This is a decision, not a necessity.
Yes, ofc a teacher can limit his/her activities outreach etc and not have a big organization. It is possible. But then who of us here would ever meet Rinpoche if he had stayed in Italy? Things would be different maybe better relatively, but I would never have the chance to meet him, etc. and sou would thousands of people. Longsal teachings would be save but nobody would really know about them. How marvelous.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Giovanni
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Giovanni »

Norbu Rinpoche was a Siddhi. The number of students was not an issue. When a Siddha is in the body 10 students or 10000 students is all the same. We can grasp with our gross senses. When a Siddha leaves the body it’s more difficult for those who have not developed the needed inner sight to stay tuned without fantasy or wish.
Safer then to find a teacher in sympathy who can tell us..”go left a little, go right a little”.
This is not disloyalty. This is necessary humbleness and reality.
Maybe a teacher will emerge from DC to take the wheel. Maybe not. We need to be smart for our needs.
Last edited by Giovanni on Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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fckw wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:22 pm Why should a teacher have so many students in the first place that he can no longer follow them all?
ChNN was one of the most accessible teachers in modern memory. He answered every email, etc., as well as sitting for hours after almost every session to greet students personally until he became too ill. He also taught in a way that was so comprehensive as to anticipate nearly any question a student might have. He is the most important link to authentic Dzogchen teachings on this globe. I am proud to be his student, his lineage will continue as long as I am alive, and beyond, among my students, whether they are recognized by Dzogchen Community or not.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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fckw wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:59 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:12 amBut institutions are not really optional.
This is where I disagree. Most mahasiddhas did not build up large institutions. Some maybe did, but many did not. Institutions are optional, they are not needed.

What cannot be done away with in contrast is the direct contact with a teacher.
Mahasiddhas, their students and their practices all belonged to a culture that recognised the urgency of their endeavour (and what they did very much comprised, strictly speaking, an institution, even if quite different from the DC). Anyone practising in the West is struggling against the current -- and a powerful current it is. No one can really go it alone for long -- which does not mean that everybody absolutely must be active in local gompas, see other practitioners on a regular basis, etc. There are various ways and intensities of being involved.

In my experience there is a clear connection between the stability and reliability of organisational structures and the dedication and perseverance of practitioners who support them (and enjoy their support in return). And the converse is true as well: the more provisional and erratic the structure, the smaller the chance of it gathering a group of serious practitioners around it. It is very much like that outside of the Buddhist environment, too.

(Reliability and stability may have little to do with the size of an institution, btw.)
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:34 pmAnyone practising in the West is struggling against the current
Huh? No idea how you come to this conclusion. According to my perception of things, it's nearly exactly the opposite: In the West, Buddhism and meditation practice started really embracing capitalist ideology, and the two are happy to go along with each other. It's a little bit how protestant ethics laid the foundation of capitalism. You would think the two could not be further apart from each other, but in fact they were the perfect complements.

Capitalism has already accepted that having people meditate actually makes them handle the stressful demands from 40h office jobs even better than ever before, because people are more focused, more relaxed, more mindful and more satisfied both as workers and as consumers. That's why Buddhism in the West is more than welcome, it perfectly goes along with the paradigm of continuous self-improvement - called "agile organization" these days. The imperative here is that people start aiming at continuously perfecting themselves, because companies cannot push this behavior just top-down to their employees. The type of intellectually relatively demanding office work most of us are doing these days requires people to deliberately selling their intellectual capital to the company against salary. And buddhism is the great discovery that, at a level even beyond intellect, there is pure attention, pure focus, pure mind, which can help becoming the office worker even more efficient, more effective, more skilled in self-exploitation. Just read Byun-Chul Han's work to understand better what's going on. He did not explicitly address buddhism and capitalism, to my knowledge, but there are some others (like Slavoj Zizek, in a rather polemic way...) who did.

Same also goes with hatha yoga practice, by the way. It's the perfect complement to be a better constant achiever professionally and therefore not at all "against the current", but actually just exactly the opposite, i.e. "supporting the current" very much.

Apologies for deviating from the thread, this can also be moved somewhere else, don't want to hijack the original discussion.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:29 pm his lineage will continue as long as I am alive, and beyond, among my students, whether they are recognized by Dzogchen Community or not.
Zangthal will continue Master Norbu’s longsal?
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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Danny wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:59 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:29 pm his lineage will continue as long as I am alive, and beyond, among my students, whether they are recognized by Dzogchen Community or not.
Zangthal will continue Master Norbu’s longsal?
Don’t chase names. Go to the essence.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:01 pm
Danny wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:59 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:29 pm his lineage will continue as long as I am alive, and beyond, among my students, whether they are recognized by Dzogchen Community or not.
Zangthal will continue Master Norbu’s longsal?
Don’t chase names. Go to the essence.
Master Norbu’s essence would be “it is ok”.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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fckw wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:17 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:34 pmAnyone practising in the West is struggling against the current
Huh? No idea how you come to this conclusion. According to my perception of things, it's nearly exactly the opposite: In the West, Buddhism and meditation practice started really embracing capitalist ideo ology, and the two are happy to go along with each other. It's a little bit how protestant ethics laid the foundation of capitalism. You would think the two could not be further apart from each other, but in fact they were the perfect complements
What you are describing is not the Buddhadharma. Not in my book, in any case. As Ron Purser and an increasing number of Western Vajrayana teachers have been pointing out, mindfulness has got precious little to do with the Dharma.

Not a useless distinction at all. Capitalism will let you have your half an hour long meditation session every other day, plus a week long retreat -- "retreat," rather -- in a Thai spa yearly. As long as it is pleasant, of course, and still chic. As long as you do not get bored, which probably means a few years at most. I spoke of serious practitioners, who stick it out. Here even the starting point is nowhere near the Buddhadharma.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:05 pm Capitalism will let you have your half an hour long meditation session every other day, plus a week long retreat -- "retreat," rather -- in a Thai spa yearly.
With daily coffee enemas...
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:09 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:05 pm Capitalism will let you have your half an hour long meditation session every other day, plus a week long retreat -- "retreat," rather -- in a Thai spa yearly.
With daily coffee enemas...
Or hot broth enemas, for us jaded Europeans. Des Esseintes style.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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fckw wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:22 pm Why should a teacher have so many students in the first place that he can no longer follow them all?
It remerbers me a story. In the mid-90's, I sat in a large meeting between a famous rinpoche and his students.
One of the student, maybe a bit arrogant, asked this question to the rinpoche (about too many students and watered-down teachings).
The rinpoche pointed one side of the room et sweeped it at 360° to show all the crowd and said : "In the time of my Master, nobody here could have been his student !"
We were from all over the world, perhaps 400 in the room...
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Giovanni »

It’s Kaliyuga. We are so fortunate that a great Mahasattva visited us from compassion. The mercy he brought will endure in some forms.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

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Harimoo wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:29 am
fckw wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:22 pm Why should a teacher have so many students in the first place that he can no longer follow them all?
It remerbers me a story. In the mid-90's, I sat in a large meeting between a famous rinpoche and his students.
One of the student, maybe a bit arrogant, asked this question to the rinpoche (about too many students and watered-down teachings).
The rinpoche pointed one side of the room et sweeped it at 360° to show all the crowd and said : "In the time of my Master, nobody here could have been his student !"
We were from all over the world, perhaps 400 in the room...
Who was that teacher?
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