Namkhai Norbu lineage

Aloke
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Aloke »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:42 am
Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:11 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:12 pm

There is no official lineage holder. This does not mean that there are no people who are qualified to give the transmissions they have received.
This doesn't seem to be the official position of the Dzogchen Community.
The Dzogchen Community, by their own admission, has no authority here.
Well, I might be wrong, and if I am, please correct me. But what I've read, and heard many times was that Rinpoche has appointed only his son and daughter as his lineage holders specially for the Longsal Cycle. We all know that Yeshi in the past gave teachings and transmissions and had some actuation in the Dzogchen Community. Then after, in 2014, he made a decision of not being involved with the Community anymore.

We can't simply say that he has a "conflict" with the Community, and not pay attention or disregard what he does, or in this case what he doesn't do or don't want to do. I mean we cannot simply ignore his actions, thinking that is just a "conflict" because he opted to live a different way of life than what he was expected or supposed to live, or he has changed his mind about the Dzogchen Community and then he has no "authority" or relevance anymore. We cannot just simply think like this, nor ignore the reasons behind the conflict, whichever they are.

If we admit that it was Rinpoche's wish to appoint Yeshi and his daughter (I'm not sure about his daughter but about Yeshi I certainly heard and read many times) as his lineage holders, we must also admit that Rinpoche knew very well what he was doing, and I'm sure he also knew his own son and daughter very well, and choosed to do so. Otherwise, we would be disrespecting Rinpoche's wish as a terton, (and also the legit lineage holders appointed by him, regardless if they want or not to have this position) or maybe saying that Rinpoche was wrong when appointing his son and daughter as his lineage holder, or even that Rinpoche doesn't know his own children very well. What would be absurd.
PeterC
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by PeterC »

Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:17 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:42 am
Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:11 am

This doesn't seem to be the official position of the Dzogchen Community.
The Dzogchen Community, by their own admission, has no authority here.
Well, I might be wrong, and if I am, please correct me. But what I've read, and heard many times was that Rinpoche has appointed only his son and daughter as his lineage holders specially for the Longsal Cycle. We all know that Yeshi in the past gave teachings and transmissions and had some actuation in the Dzogchen Community. Then after, in 2014, he made a decision of not being involved with the Community anymore.
I think you're reading too much into his comments about his children being able to teach. He never said that others could not. If he had intended that they be sole lineage holders - which has a specific meaning - he would have said that.

Also why seize on the very limited and slightly ambiguous statements he made about his children and ignore the many statements he made about his students needing to combine their capacities, support each other, etc.

The default here should be that we view this question as we would any other terma lineage. If he made statements that we should apply a different standard, obviously we should do that. But nobody can point to those, despite so much of what he said being recorded and transcribed. So we should default to the normal standards.
Aloke
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Aloke »

PeterC wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:23 am
Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:17 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:42 am

The Dzogchen Community, by their own admission, has no authority here.
Well, I might be wrong, and if I am, please correct me. But what I've read, and heard many times was that Rinpoche has appointed only his son and daughter as his lineage holders specially for the Longsal Cycle. We all know that Yeshi in the past gave teachings and transmissions and had some actuation in the Dzogchen Community. Then after, in 2014, he made a decision of not being involved with the Community anymore.
I think you're reading too much into his comments about his children being able to teach. He never said that others could not. If he had intended that they be sole lineage holders - which has a specific meaning - he would have said that.
Maybe.
Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Malcolm »

Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:17 am We can't simply say that he has a "conflict" with the Community, and not pay attention or disregard what he does, or in this case what he doesn't do or don't want to do.
Sure we can.

If we admit that it was Rinpoche's wish to appoint Yeshi and his daughter (I'm not sure about his daughter but about Yeshi I certainly heard and read many times) as his lineage holders, we must also admit that Rinpoche knew very well what he was doing, and I'm sure he also knew his own son and daughter very well, and choosed to do so. Otherwise, we would be disrespecting Rinpoche's wish as a terton, (and also the legit lineage holders appointed by him, regardless if they want or not to have this position) or maybe saying that Rinpoche was wrong when appointing his son and daughter as his lineage holder, or even that Rinpoche doesn't know his own children very well. What would be absurd.
You are free to interpret things however you wish. So are others.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Aloke
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Aloke »

Well, in one way or another, maybe as it seems is already done, or sooner or later, we will have someone giving transmissions in CNNR's Lineage. Deal with it.
Aloke
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Aloke »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:36 am
Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:17 am We can't simply say that he has a "conflict" with the Community, and not pay attention or disregard what he does, or in this case what he doesn't do or don't want to do.
Sure we can.

If we admit that it was Rinpoche's wish to appoint Yeshi and his daughter (I'm not sure about his daughter but about Yeshi I certainly heard and read many times) as his lineage holders, we must also admit that Rinpoche knew very well what he was doing, and I'm sure he also knew his own son and daughter very well, and choosed to do so. Otherwise, we would be disrespecting Rinpoche's wish as a terton, (and also the legit lineage holders appointed by him, regardless if they want or not to have this position) or maybe saying that Rinpoche was wrong when appointing his son and daughter as his lineage holder, or even that Rinpoche doesn't know his own children very well. What would be absurd.
You are free to interpret things however you wish. So are others.
Sure.
Aloke
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Aloke »

PeterC wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:23 am
Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:17 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:42 am

The Dzogchen Community, by their own admission, has no authority here.
Well, I might be wrong, and if I am, please correct me. But what I've read, and heard many times was that Rinpoche has appointed only his son and daughter as his lineage holders specially for the Longsal Cycle. We all know that Yeshi in the past gave teachings and transmissions and had some actuation in the Dzogchen Community. Then after, in 2014, he made a decision of not being involved with the Community anymore.
I think you're reading too much into his comments about his children being able to teach. He never said that others could not. If he had intended that they be sole lineage holders - which has a specific meaning - he would have said that.

Also why seize on the very limited and slightly ambiguous statements he made about his children and ignore the many statements he made about his students needing to combine their capacities, support each other, etc.

The default here should be that we view this question as we would any other terma lineage. If he made statements that we should apply a different standard, obviously we should do that. But nobody can point to those, despite so much of what he said being recorded and transcribed. So we should default to the normal standards.
This seems to be fair.
Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Malcolm »

Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:43 am Well, in one way or another, maybe as it seems is already done, or sooner or later, we will have someone giving transmissions in CNNR's Lineage. Deal with it.
Correct. The first teaching I attended by CHNN, in 1992, he very carefully went into what it meant to “hold a lineage.” The idea of “lineage holders” is politics, more about intellectual property than anything else. The ability to transmit teachings depends on whether one has realized the meaning of a teaching. That’s it. Therefor, students have to be very discerning about whom they choose to,follow. The criteria for being able to give teachings is very clearly laid out in the tantras. That should be our guide, not lineage politics.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:17 am But what I've read, and heard many times was that Rinpoche has appointed only his son and daughter as his lineage holders specially for the Longsal Cycle. We all know that Yeshi in the past gave teachings and transmissions and had some actuation in the Dzogchen Community. Then after, in 2014, he made a decision of not being involved with the Community anymore.

We can't simply say that he has a "conflict" with the Community, and not pay attention or disregard what he does, or in this case what he doesn't do or don't want to do. I mean we cannot simply ignore his actions, thinking that is just a "conflict" because he opted to live a different way of life than what he was expected or supposed to live, or he has changed his mind about the Dzogchen Community and then he has no "authority" or relevance anymore. We cannot just simply think like this, nor ignore the reasons behind the conflict, whichever they are.

If we admit that it was Rinpoche's wish to appoint Yeshi and his daughter (I'm not sure about his daughter but about Yeshi I certainly heard and read many times) as his lineage holders, we must also admit that Rinpoche knew very well what he was doing, and I'm sure he also knew his own son and daughter very well, and choosed to do so. Otherwise, we would be disrespecting Rinpoche's wish as a terton, (and also the legit lineage holders appointed by him, regardless if they want or not to have this position) or maybe saying that Rinpoche was wrong when appointing his son and daughter as his lineage holder, or even that Rinpoche doesn't know his own children very well. What would be absurd.
By Yeshi's own admission, neither he nor Yuchen were ever appointed as Longsal lineage holders. No one was. Rinpoche's document states that they can teach the practices they received from the father -- which Yeshi understands as meaning that they can instruct on them. Yeshi will not do that, however, because he wants to have nothing to do with the DC.

Pardon me, but in the context I have no interest in what Yeshi says or does, or fails to say or do. Nor do I see a reason why anyone in the DC should or would. As far as he is concerned, we are not family, something which he has taken truly painstaking care to make us all aware of.
Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:11 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:12 pm There is no official lineage holder. This does not mean that there are no people who are qualified to give the transmissions they have received.
This doesn't seem to be the official position of the Dzogchen Community. But something that you are repeating, maybe to reinforce your self proclamation as one of the lineage holders? As you already give teachings, lungs/empowerments. It is just a question ok?
As far as there being no official lineage holder goes, it is very much the official position of the DC, and it is precisely what Yeshi insisted on. Did you attend the meeting during which the IDG answered people's questions?

Also, Malcolm has never proclaimed himself to be a Longsal/ChNN lineage holder. And he has never taught Longsal.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
Aloke
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:27 pm

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Aloke »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:44 am
Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:17 am But what I've read, and heard many times was that Rinpoche has appointed only his son and daughter as his lineage holders specially for the Longsal Cycle. We all know that Yeshi in the past gave teachings and transmissions and had some actuation in the Dzogchen Community. Then after, in 2014, he made a decision of not being involved with the Community anymore.

We can't simply say that he has a "conflict" with the Community, and not pay attention or disregard what he does, or in this case what he doesn't do or don't want to do. I mean we cannot simply ignore his actions, thinking that is just a "conflict" because he opted to live a different way of life than what he was expected or supposed to live, or he has changed his mind about the Dzogchen Community and then he has no "authority" or relevance anymore. We cannot just simply think like this, nor ignore the reasons behind the conflict, whichever they are.

If we admit that it was Rinpoche's wish to appoint Yeshi and his daughter (I'm not sure about his daughter but about Yeshi I certainly heard and read many times) as his lineage holders, we must also admit that Rinpoche knew very well what he was doing, and I'm sure he also knew his own son and daughter very well, and choosed to do so. Otherwise, we would be disrespecting Rinpoche's wish as a terton, (and also the legit lineage holders appointed by him, regardless if they want or not to have this position) or maybe saying that Rinpoche was wrong when appointing his son and daughter as his lineage holder, or even that Rinpoche doesn't know his own children very well. What would be absurd.
By Yeshi's own admission, neither he nor Yuchen were ever appointed as Longsal lineage holders. No one was. Rinpoche's document states that they can teach the practices they received from the father -- which Yeshi understands as meaning that they can instruct on them. Yeshi will not do that, however, because he wants to have nothing to do with the DC.

Pardon me, but in the context I have no interest in what Yeshi says or does, or fails to say or do. Nor do I see a reason why anyone in the DC should or would. As far as he is concerned, we are not family, something which he has taken truly painstaking care to make us all aware of.
Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:11 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:12 pm There is no official lineage holder. This does not mean that there are no people who are qualified to give the transmissions they have received.
This doesn't seem to be the official position of the Dzogchen Community. But something that you are repeating, maybe to reinforce your self proclamation as one of the lineage holders? As you already give teachings, lungs/empowerments. It is just a question ok?
As far as there being no official lineage holder goes, it is very much the official position of the DC, and it is precisely what Yeshi insisted on. Did you attend the meeting during which the IDG answered people's questions?

Also, Malcolm has never proclaimed himself to be a Longsal/ChNN lineage holder. And he has never taught Longsal.
First of all I want to thank you for your openness and patience to talk about this subject! 
I have heard and have read this kind of thing many times from Dzogchen Community people, and as I said, correct me if something doesn't actually correspond to the truth. 

About Yeshe you said that "he wants to have nothing to do with the DC", and you  asked me if I have attended the meeting during which the IDG answered people's questions. I have not attended the meeting, I thought it would be a waste of time, but of course, I read the documents they provided, and one of the answers to one of the questions about Transmissions / Lungs, more specifically: "Will Yeshi give direct transmission?" Was: "Yeshi announced that he would give direct transmission in Merigar West for people seriously interested in the teaching of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu in Easter 2020. Then the event was canceled due to the Covid pandemic. Yeshi said in the two meetings in August that he intends to make it possible to access the texts and teaching of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, by meeting people seriously interested in the Teaching of the Master, when circumstances make it possible."

I am still trying to find the coherence between saying that Yeshe don't want to have nothing to do with the Dzogchen Community, and the Dzogchen Community people keep saying things like this not only in informal conversations, but in their Annual General Meeting. Finally, about Yeshe's reasons behind his conflict with the Dzogchen Community I do think that we should not ignore it. It would be foolish, as sooner or later some stuff will show up.

I didn't affirm that Malcolm has proclaimed something, or that he has or not taught Longsal. I was just making a question. I know that Malcolm says that his "job is the 17 tantras." But he has also said things like: 

"ChNN was one of the most accessible teachers in modern memory. He answered every email, etc., as well as sitting for hours after almost every session to greet students personally until he became too ill. He also taught in a way that was so comprehensive as to anticipate nearly any question a student might have. He is the most important link to authentic Dzogchen teachings on this globe. I am proud to be his student, his lineage will continue as long as I am alive, and beyond, among my students, whether they are recognized by Dzogchen Community or not.Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total."
Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Malcolm »

Aloke wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:08 pm
I didn't affirm that Malcolm has proclaimed something, or that he has or not taught Longsal. I was just making a question. I know that Malcolm says that his "job is the 17 tantras." But he has also said things like: 

"ChNN was one of the most accessible teachers in modern memory. He answered every email, etc., as well as sitting for hours after almost every session to greet students personally until he became too ill. He also taught in a way that was so comprehensive as to anticipate nearly any question a student might have. He is the most important link to authentic Dzogchen teachings on this globe. I am proud to be his student, his lineage will continue as long as I am alive, and beyond, among my students, whether they are recognized by Dzogchen Community or not.Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total."
I have many lineages of Dzogchen teachings from many different masters. When I teach, those lineages pass through me to my students.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Aloke wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:08 pm I read the documents they provided, and one of the answers to one of the questions about Transmissions / Lungs, more specifically: "Will Yeshi give direct transmission?" Was: "Yeshi announced that he would give direct transmission in Merigar West for people seriously interested in the teaching of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu in Easter 2020. Then the event was canceled due to the Covid pandemic. Yeshi said in the two meetings in August that he intends to make it possible to access the texts and teaching of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, by meeting people seriously interested in the Teaching of the Master, when circumstances make it possible."

I am still trying to find the coherence between saying that Yeshe don't want to have nothing to do with the Dzogchen Community, and the Dzogchen Community people keep saying things like this not only in informal conversations, but in their Annual General Meeting. Finally, about Yeshe's reasons behind his conflict with the Dzogchen Community I do think that we should not ignore it. It would be foolish, as sooner or later some stuff will show up.
Well, regarding the first part -- the Merigar event with Yeshi that never happened was apparently understood quite differently by Yeshi and by whoever organised it (and whoever organised the Q&A event). During the meeting with gakyils Yeshi said he would not, and had not intended to, give the DI since no one had been authorised to do so by Rinpoche. I have no idea about what he had planned to actually do, nor whether he had actually meant to "make it possible to access the texts and teachings of ChNN" for those interested. If someone wants to join in, what they need is a DI, isn't it?

Regarding Yeshi's reasons for ditching the DC-- there is really nothing to speak about. It is just banal. Yes, there were some conflicts in the sangha. Yes, they involved the usual boring human stuff, i.e., the five poisons. Nothing which does not happen in any other Dharmic environment, especially when there is a status/power imbalance, and when there are people whose positioning is ambiguous (Yeshi being both the son of the Master and an ordinary practitioner, both a Westerner and a tulku, etc). I really can see no benefit in probing anything here.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
laowhining
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by laowhining »

Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:11 am About Yeshe you said that "he wants to have nothing to do with the DC", and you  asked me if I have attended the meeting during which the IDG answered people's questions. I have not attended the meeting, I thought it would be a waste of time, but of course, I read the documents they provided, and one of the answers to one of the questions about Transmissions / Lungs, more specifically: "Will Yeshi give direct transmission?" Was: "Yeshi announced that he would give direct transmission in Merigar West for people seriously interested in the teaching of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu in Easter 2020. Then the event was canceled due to the Covid pandemic. Yeshi said in the two meetings in August that he intends to make it possible to access the texts and teaching of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, by meeting people seriously interested in the Teaching of the Master, when circumstances make it possible."

I am still trying to find the coherence between saying that Yeshe don't want to have nothing to do with the Dzogchen Community, and the Dzogchen Community people keep saying things like this not only in informal conversations, but in their Annual General Meeting. Finally, about Yeshe's reasons behind his conflict with the Dzogchen Community I do think that we should not ignore it. It would be foolish, as sooner or later some stuff will show up.
The lack of coherence is due to differences in understanding of what was said during the meeting. I attended the meeting and my understanding of what Khyentse Yeshi said does not correspond entirely to the collection of points sent out some days after the meeting that seems to have proliferated online. I'm not saying one is wrong or right, just that what is circulating online is mostly speculation.

I don't think this speculation is particularly fruitful, at least not what I see online; it seems more like gossip than anything else. Maybe it's helpful if we reflect on how we, as a Community, have interacted with Rinpoche and Yeshi and the rest of the family in a way that could create this kind of tension, but I think it's necessary to know more about what happened than most of us do if we want to make these conversations anything more than speculation and useless hand-wringing about "the future of the teachings."
Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Malcolm »

laowhining wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:21 pm
Aloke wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:11 am About Yeshe you said that "he wants to have nothing to do with the DC", and you  asked me if I have attended the meeting during which the IDG answered people's questions. I have not attended the meeting, I thought it would be a waste of time, but of course, I read the documents they provided, and one of the answers to one of the questions about Transmissions / Lungs, more specifically: "Will Yeshi give direct transmission?" Was: "Yeshi announced that he would give direct transmission in Merigar West for people seriously interested in the teaching of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu in Easter 2020. Then the event was canceled due to the Covid pandemic. Yeshi said in the two meetings in August that he intends to make it possible to access the texts and teaching of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, by meeting people seriously interested in the Teaching of the Master, when circumstances make it possible."

I am still trying to find the coherence between saying that Yeshe don't want to have nothing to do with the Dzogchen Community, and the Dzogchen Community people keep saying things like this not only in informal conversations, but in their Annual General Meeting. Finally, about Yeshe's reasons behind his conflict with the Dzogchen Community I do think that we should not ignore it. It would be foolish, as sooner or later some stuff will show up.
The lack of coherence is due to differences in understanding of what was said during the meeting. I attended the meeting and my understanding of what Khyentse Yeshi said does not correspond entirely to the collection of points sent out some days after the meeting that seems to have proliferated online. I'm not saying one is wrong or right, just that what is circulating online is mostly speculation.

I don't think this speculation is particularly fruitful, at least not what I see online; it seems more like gossip than anything else. Maybe it's helpful if we reflect on how we, as a Community, have interacted with Rinpoche and Yeshi and the rest of the family in a way that could create this kind of tension, but I think it's necessary to know more about what happened than most of us do if we want to make these conversations anything more than speculation and useless hand-wringing about "the future of the teachings."
You attended both meetings?
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
laowhining
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by laowhining »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:48 pm You attended both meetings?
I did not attend the first, as far as I know that was only open to SMS instructors, but I attended the second that was open to Gakyil and others representing some kind of organization within the DC orbit.
Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Malcolm »

laowhining wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:48 pm You attended both meetings?
I did not attend the first, as far as I know that was only open to SMS instructors, but I attended the second that was open to Gakyil and others representing some kind of organization within the DC orbit.
I attended neither, but I know people who attended both. What a shit show.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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