Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post Reply
Rasputin
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:01 pm

Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Rasputin »

Hi! I have been a member of the Dzogchen Community for over thirty years and am still shocked about the death of Rimpoche. Not that we didn't all see it coming but still....missing him a lot.
I don't have much contact to my vajra brothers and sisters anymore. Sometimes people grow apart, there are no bad feelings.

I have a question which burms in my mind a long time and am sure there are competent persons here who will answer this:

I understand no lineage holder succeeds Namkhai Norbu. That means noone will be initiated into Rinpoche's teachings anymore, no Song of the Vajra, no Ganapuja, no nothing. This means our teachings are dead as new folks won't get the needed empowerments/wang. So as a Buddhist society we are ineffective as only members who received Rinpoche's empowerments will be able to practice correctly.

Well, Rinpoche prophesized that his community would fall apart after his death.

But why does it have to be so? There are some very able teachers who could transmit the empowerment if only they knew how. I think it must be some Astral thread or power or something like that.
Rinpoche got taught how to do these empowerments - so why can't his son or other teachers learn it. Even if it was not taught by Rinpoche himself?

The transmission of Empowerment (wang) is also known to other Lamas. Why can't they help out and show some of our teachers how it's done?

I have the feeling that something VERY dear and valuable to humankind is lost if the Dzogchen teachings won't be taught to people anymore. Maybe it's fate. Maybe it's Rinpoche's will. But this doesn't mean we have to accept it. Sorry dear vajra sisters and brothers but I was always the misfit in our community ... and I don't intend to change my ways as I grow older ;)

So please can you tell me why there are no more initiations? Thank you!

Tashi delek :namaste:
Danny
Posts: 613
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Danny »

Simply, I think because he was the master, and we were his students. If we as students knew the same as the master, we would also be a master.
Then we wouldn’t be transmitting his lineage, we would be transmitting our own lineage.
Does that make any sense?
Pero
Posts: 2355
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Pero »

"Our teachings" are not dead as long as we live. After that however if no one gives transmissions they will die out. But this goes mainly for teachings specific to DC, such as Longsal, SMS, Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance, sadhanas that Rinpoche composed and termas of Khenytse Chokyi Wangchug. All other teachings you can get from other teachers too, so it is not the death of Dzogchen or other teachings. Plenty of teachers teaching Dzogchen out there.

For another teacher to help DC with its specific teachings, they would've had to have had the same transmissions as we do. Also as far as I understand with empowerments there are empowerment texts on how to give them, I don't know if Rinpoche maybe transmitted that to people in private, I do not recall receiving anything like that personally (or maybe once or twice it was included but not sure). Then, one has to be qualified to give an empowerment. And one has to have the confidence to do so and understand and take on the responsibility that comes with it. Plus there are issues of Rinpoche's students accepting the person who'd decide to give empowerments.

His son it seems doesn't want much to do with the DC.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
PeterC
Posts: 3055
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by PeterC »

Danny wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:14 pm Simply, I think because he was the master, and we were his students. If we as students knew the same as the master, we would also be a master.
Then we wouldn’t be transmitting his lineage, we would be transmitting our own lineage.
Does that make any sense?
No, no sense at all.

You need to understand the qualifications for giving an empowerment or a lung. By your logic no empowerments would ever have survived to this day.
Danny
Posts: 613
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Danny »

PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:06 pm
Danny wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:14 pm Simply, I think because he was the master, and we were his students. If we as students knew the same as the master, we would also be a master.
Then we wouldn’t be transmitting his lineage, we would be transmitting our own lineage.
Does that make any sense?
No, no sense at all.

You need to understand the qualifications for giving an empowerment or a lung. By your logic no empowerments would ever have survived to this day.
Sure, your one of those looking to circumvent Rinpoches wishes.
Btw - that was Rinpoches communication, I was paraphrasing.

Good day sir.
PeterC
Posts: 3055
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by PeterC »

Pero wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:29 pm "Our teachings" are not dead as long as we live. After that however if no one gives transmissions they will die out. But this goes mainly for teachings specific to DC, such as Longsal, SMS, Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance, sadhanas that Rinpoche composed and termas of Khenytse Chokyi Wangchug. All other teachings you can get from other teachers too, so it is not the death of Dzogchen or other teachings. Plenty of teachers teaching Dzogchen out there.

For another teacher to help DC with its specific teachings, they would've had to have had the same transmissions as we do. Also as far as I understand with empowerments there are empowerment texts on how to give them, I don't know if Rinpoche maybe transmitted that to people in private, I do not recall receiving anything like that personally (or maybe once or twice it was included but not sure). Then, one has to be qualified to give an empowerment. And one has to have the confidence to do so and understand and take on the responsibility that comes with it. Plus there are issues of Rinpoche's students accepting the person who'd decide to give empowerments.
This is not an unusual situation with many lineages. If they’re not passed on they die out.
His son it seems doesn't want much to do with the DC.
This is an unusual situation for most lineages. And while it attracts all the debate, frankly the issue is closed and everyone should move on.

People often raise the question of whether DC members would accept someone else giving empowerments. A more pertinent question is - after the events of the last year, would they want to be students of Yeshi?
Malcolm
Posts: 33798
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Malcolm »

Danny wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:14 pm Then we wouldn’t be transmitting his lineage, we would be transmitting our own lineage.
Does that make any sense?
No, since all of ChNN's teachings come from someone else.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
User avatar
Tilopa
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Tilopa »

Rasputin wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:30 pm I understand no lineage holder succeeds Namkhai Norbu. That means noone will be initiated into Rinpoche's teachings anymore, no Song of the Vajra, no Ganapuja, no nothing.
It seems his son is giving transmission to new students

https://www.tsegyalgar.org/tsegyalgar-e ... o-namkhai/
Rasputin
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:01 pm

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Rasputin »

PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:12 pm A more pertinent question is - after the events of the last year, would they want to be students of Yeshi?
What do you mean by this? Could you be a little more specific? I'm out of touch, sorry.
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2006
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Rasputin wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:55 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:12 pm A more pertinent question is - after the events of the last year, would they want to be students of Yeshi?
What do you mean by this? Could you be a little more specific? I'm out of touch, sorry.
The really crucial bit is this:

By his own admission, he is not and does not want to be in any sense a part of the DC. He is not, has never been, and will never be a teacher.

(The link to the Easter event posted above is deeply misleading, for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is the past that never happened. Secondly, Yeshi himself appears to understand what was to happen but did not quite differently. For a good reason: if he is not, never has been, never will be a teacher, he cannot transmit Dzogchen teachings.)

Then there are the gory details, but if you want them you should ask your local ling about what recently transpired. A topic not really fit for public consumption -- and, at the end of the day, quite irrelevant. Not worth your or anybody's time, either. What is relevant is stated above.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
Malcolm
Posts: 33798
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Malcolm »

Tilopa wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:30 pm
Rasputin wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:30 pm I understand no lineage holder succeeds Namkhai Norbu. That means noone will be initiated into Rinpoche's teachings anymore, no Song of the Vajra, no Ganapuja, no nothing.
It seems his son is giving transmission to new students

https://www.tsegyalgar.org/tsegyalgar-e ... o-namkhai/
That was cancelled.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 4550
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I would assume that whatever transmissions he held were also passed to him from his teacher. No?

So his own dharma brothers, meaning those who also had his teacher, basically your “uncles” also have received the same transmissions he received, just as you and the others in your sangha received them.

Maybe it possible that there is still a direct linear link to Namkai Norbu’s own teacher, via other teachers? In other words, maybe you have some dharma cousins you don’t know about, and the teachings and transmissions can continue.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
Malcolm
Posts: 33798
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:28 pm

Maybe it possible that there is still a direct linear link to Namkai Norbu’s own teacher, via other teachers? In other words, maybe you have some dharma cousins you don’t know about, and the teachings and transmissions can continue.
This issue here is his own teaching cycle, called Longsal Khandro Nyinthik. He did not leave an heir apparent for this cycle of teachings who is interested in passing that cycle on. This does not mean that these teachings will not be passed on, however.

Everything else is available from other teachers.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
pemachophel
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by pemachophel »

Maybe I missed it above, but I've been waiting for someone to say this. Thank you, Loppon-la.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
PeterC
Posts: 3055
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by PeterC »

Danny wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:10 pm

Sure, your one of those looking to circumvent Rinpoches wishes.
Btw - that was Rinpoches communication, I was paraphrasing.

Good day sir
I'm correcting your comments because other people might read this board and might think you were correct. So in a sense, I and others here are not really talking to you, in part because you're not really interested in serious discussion.

You use the term "transmission" but you clearly don't understand what you're talking about. The discussion we've been having here for over a year now is around ChNNr's Longsal cycle - all the other things he taught (the Changchub Dorje, Adzom Drukpa, Ayu Khandro etc. termas) are available from other living teachers if you look hard enough. The question is who can give a lung and, where necessary, the associated empowerments and/or method of introduction for those. This does not, contra your repeated assertion, require a "dharma heir" anointed by ChNNr. Why? Because (a) he never ruled out the possibility of his students giving these; and (b) in every other revealed teaching out there, anyone who has properly received it, fulfilled any requirements (approximation retreat, etc.) and has the ability to conduct the lung and/or empowerments/introductions can pass it on. (The obvious exception would be some termas early in their lives where the guardian specifically instructed the terton to keep it secret for a certain number of generations - but we know that that restriction does not apply here, because ChNNr himself never spoke of it, and he gave quite detailed descriptions of how he received his own teachings.)

Of course just because someone *offers* a teaching, that does not mean everyone will *accept* it, nor that everyone will think they should be offering it. That isn't just a DC issue. There are high-profile lamas from whom I would not receive empowerments, because I don't particularly like them, and there are empowerments I won't receive, because I have an issue with the lineage behind it. (This applies to about 100% of Vajrayana practitioners, or at least it should do, because someone who accepts any teaching from any lama is a fool.) So of course if someone decided to offer lungs of the Longsal cycle, some members of the DC would think it is heresy - presumably you would be one of them - and refuse to attend. Big deal. Nowhere did ChNNr rule out this possibility. Indeed a lot of his comments - relying on each other, etc. - suggest that he considered it.

It is clear that Yeshi will not teach, has no interest in associating with the DC, and generally does not believe in what his father taught. He is his own person and can make these decisions for himself. If you think that ChNNr's intent in this situation is that his own terma cycle, to which he dedicated a large part of his life, should then just die out because he didn't leave specific enough instructions on how to propagate it if his son didn't follow his wishes: then I really don't think you understand his intent.
windoverwater
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:08 am
Location: northeast USA

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by windoverwater »

I never met Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche in person, nor had involvement in the Dzogchen Community, but I did have the good fortune to receive transmission of the White A guru yoga and the Song of the Vajra via one of his world-wide internet transmissions around 2012.

These are among the most profound dharma transmissions I have received in this lifetime. While I am primarily a student of another teacher, these practices I received from Norbu Rinpoche, along with the guidance and elucidation extended by Acarya Malcolm Smith (on this forum, in his work of translation, and elsewhere), have enhanced my understanding and implementation of dzogchen. May Rinpoche's lineage continue on to benefit beings!
PeterC
Posts: 3055
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by PeterC »

:good:

Well said.
User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 9563
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Ayu »

I removed a bit of disagreement quarrel and those quoting posts as well. Please let that secondary theme rest for the sake of factual discussion.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:
Aloke
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:27 pm

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Aloke »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:23 pm
Rasputin wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:55 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:12 pm A more pertinent question is - after the events of the last year, would they want to be students of Yeshi?
What do you mean by this? Could you be a little more specific? I'm out of touch, sorry.
The really crucial bit is this:

By his own admission, he is not and does not want to be in any sense a part of the DC. He is not, has never been, and will never be a teacher.

(The link to the Easter event posted above is deeply misleading, for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is the past that never happened. Secondly, Yeshi himself appears to understand what was to happen but did not quite differently. For a good reason: if he is not, never has been, never will be a teacher, he cannot transmit Dzogchen teachings.)

Then there are the gory details, but if you want them you should ask your local ling about what recently transpired. A topic not really fit for public consumption -- and, at the end of the day, quite irrelevant. Not worth your or anybody's time, either. What is relevant is stated above.
Yes, this is what is really relevant. I personally have choosed to stay out and away from the Community. The reason? Simple, all this confusion, disputes, and the insistence in saying things like "Yeshi will give Transmission, you should invite those who want to receive it and tell them that they should wait, or make a vow or commitmente to receive it from him" This has a name: lie, and this is clearly really bad, not respectfull with anyone, not respectfull with the teachings itself.

If a lineage has no way to be transmitted anymore why not just accept the situation as it is and talk frankly about this? Why all the mistery? Why all the confusion? Why open for members to put questions in the annual general meeting and juts ignore some questions? What's behind this agenda of the Community? I think we all know very well...
Last edited by Aloke on Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 12307
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Namkhai Norbu lineage

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Aloke wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:53 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:23 pm
Rasputin wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:55 pm
What do you mean by this? Could you be a little more specific? I'm out of touch, sorry.
The really crucial bit is this:

By his own admission, he is not and does not want to be in any sense a part of the DC. He is not, has never been, and will never be a teacher.

(The link to the Easter event posted above is deeply misleading, for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is the past that never happened. Secondly, Yeshi himself appears to understand what was to happen but did not quite differently. For a good reason: if he is not, never has been, never will be a teacher, he cannot transmit Dzogchen teachings.)

Then there are the gory details, but if you want them you should ask your local ling about what recently transpired. A topic not really fit for public consumption -- and, at the end of the day, quite irrelevant. Not worth your or anybody's time, either. What is relevant is stated above.
Yes, this is what is really relevant. I personally have choosed to stay out and away from the Community. The reason? Simple, all this confusion, disputes, and the insistence in saying things like "Yeshi will give Transmission, you should invite those who want to receive it and tell them that they should wait, or make a vow or commitmente to receive it from him" This has a name: lie, and this is clearly really bad, not respectfull with anyone, not respectfull with the teachings itself.

If a lineage has no way to be transmitted anymore why not just accept the situation as it is and talk frankly about this? Why all the mistery? Why all the confusion? Why open for members to put questions in the annual general meeting and juts ignore some questions? What's behind this agenda of the Community? I think we all know very well...
I feel similarly, though not specifically around Yeshi. I have never been able to make meatspace connections with DC sangha, the one time I tried it was an unmitigated disaster. SMS teachers have helped me and my practice hugely though, as have other members, but with Rinpoche gone from here, and membership not providing any particular sense of community or continuity (in fact, as you say, sometimes the opposite) it feels hard to justify.

Still, it's distressing to think of the organization completely falling apart, and the effects (even outside of questions of Rinpoche's transmission) will be hard on people's practices. So I get it, but at this point would rather just become "peripheral" again, because I don't see much good going on with the organization. That said, it certainly has some brilliant people and I don't want to count it out, things could go in a good direction, or there might be a "comfortable schism" where people end up where they wanna be, who knows.

Honestly all the public "messages" (i.e. confusing cryptic descriptions of what and what not talk about, claims that Rinpoche believed that paying DC dues was necessary in order to practice his teachings, etc.) coming out following Rinpoche's death soured me a bit on as far as the DC as an organization, and made me (probably unfairly, sometimes) kind of cynical about things.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”