Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

yagmort
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Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by yagmort »

these are 2 quotes by Malcolm Smith taken from 2 topics, both locked.

Malcolm wrote:...It may be the case that in modern Tibetan Buddhism Dzogchen has become mixed with anuyoga teachings, especially at the level of empowerments. For example, the Longchen Nyinthig is mostly deity practices. The Dzogchen section of it is very short, only a few very short texts (Yeshe Lama is not part of the Longchen Nyinthig, though it is included in the supporting text material)...
...
...We are talking about Dzogchen as it is presented within the Dzogchen tantras themselves and their related instructions such as the Vima Nyinthig, which have zero deity yoga practices as part of the path...
taken from Dzogchen Sadhana Practice


Malcolm wrote:...Finally, just because some sadhana has really pretty Dzogchen words like "ka dag," "lhun grub," etc., does not mean that sadhana actually belongs to Dzogchen teachings. A case in point is the Chetsun Nyingthig. The Chetsun Nyingthig's actual Dzogchen instructions are included only in a very short section at the very end of the root text. The rest of it is devoted to discussing the empowerment, the ngondro practice, the sadhana of Chetsun, and so on. It is a wonderful practice, excellent in every way. But when you are practicing some sadhana reciting mantras, you are practicing the two stages, not Dzogchen. This does not mean the Chetsun Nyinthig sucks, does not have blessings (whatever that means) and so on. It means that in that system, when you have finished the two stages connected with the practice of Chetsun, then you move on to actual Dzogchen preliminaries and the main practice of Dzogchen. The main emphasis of the Chetsun Nyingthig is the Guru Yoga of Vimalamitra. It is very profound. But the main practice of Dzogchen is more profound, as Vimalamitra would agree...
...
...Some people like to follow the modern Nyingma system. I prefer to follow Garab Dorje. We are all free to do as we like...
taken from "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism



what i am curious about is are there any Dzogchen lineages/cycles which reflect Malcolm's POV? honestly i thought there are no cycles nowadays which has little to no deity yoga. i mean even if one would like to follow such an approach it's not possible to practice say Vima Nyingthig?
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Tata1 »

yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm these are 2 quotes by Malcolm Smith taken from 2 topics, both locked.

Malcolm wrote:...It may be the case that in modern Tibetan Buddhism Dzogchen has become mixed with anuyoga teachings, especially at the level of empowerments. For example, the Longchen Nyinthig is mostly deity practices. The Dzogchen section of it is very short, only a few very short texts (Yeshe Lama is not part of the Longchen Nyinthig, though it is included in the supporting text material)...
...
...We are talking about Dzogchen as it is presented within the Dzogchen tantras themselves and their related instructions such as the Vima Nyinthig, which have zero deity yoga practices as part of the path...
taken from Dzogchen Sadhana Practice


Malcolm wrote:...Finally, just because some sadhana has really pretty Dzogchen words like "ka dag," "lhun grub," etc., does not mean that sadhana actually belongs to Dzogchen teachings. A case in point is the Chetsun Nyingthig. The Chetsun Nyingthig's actual Dzogchen instructions are included only in a very short section at the very end of the root text. The rest of it is devoted to discussing the empowerment, the ngondro practice, the sadhana of Chetsun, and so on. It is a wonderful practice, excellent in every way. But when you are practicing some sadhana reciting mantras, you are practicing the two stages, not Dzogchen. This does not mean the Chetsun Nyinthig sucks, does not have blessings (whatever that means) and so on. It means that in that system, when you have finished the two stages connected with the practice of Chetsun, then you move on to actual Dzogchen preliminaries and the main practice of Dzogchen. The main emphasis of the Chetsun Nyingthig is the Guru Yoga of Vimalamitra. It is very profound. But the main practice of Dzogchen is more profound, as Vimalamitra would agree...
...
...Some people like to follow the modern Nyingma system. I prefer to follow Garab Dorje. We are all free to do as we like...
taken from "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism



what i am curious about is are there any Dzogchen lineages/cycles which reflect Malcolm's POV? honestly i thought there are no cycles nowadays which has little to no deity yoga. i mean even if one would like to follow such an approach it's not possible to practice say Vima Nyingthig?
A dzogchen practitioner can use any secondary practice they find usefull
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm these are 2 quotes by Malcolm Smith taken from 2 topics, both locked.

Malcolm wrote:...It may be the case that in modern Tibetan Buddhism Dzogchen has become mixed with anuyoga teachings, especially at the level of empowerments. For example, the Longchen Nyinthig is mostly deity practices. The Dzogchen section of it is very short, only a few very short texts (Yeshe Lama is not part of the Longchen Nyinthig, though it is included in the supporting text material)...
...
...We are talking about Dzogchen as it is presented within the Dzogchen tantras themselves and their related instructions such as the Vima Nyinthig, which have zero deity yoga practices as part of the path...
taken from Dzogchen Sadhana Practice


Malcolm wrote:...Finally, just because some sadhana has really pretty Dzogchen words like "ka dag," "lhun grub," etc., does not mean that sadhana actually belongs to Dzogchen teachings. A case in point is the Chetsun Nyingthig. The Chetsun Nyingthig's actual Dzogchen instructions are included only in a very short section at the very end of the root text. The rest of it is devoted to discussing the empowerment, the ngondro practice, the sadhana of Chetsun, and so on. It is a wonderful practice, excellent in every way. But when you are practicing some sadhana reciting mantras, you are practicing the two stages, not Dzogchen. This does not mean the Chetsun Nyinthig sucks, does not have blessings (whatever that means) and so on. It means that in that system, when you have finished the two stages connected with the practice of Chetsun, then you move on to actual Dzogchen preliminaries and the main practice of Dzogchen. The main emphasis of the Chetsun Nyingthig is the Guru Yoga of Vimalamitra. It is very profound. But the main practice of Dzogchen is more profound, as Vimalamitra would agree...
...
...Some people like to follow the modern Nyingma system. I prefer to follow Garab Dorje. We are all free to do as we like...
taken from "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism



what i am curious about is are there any Dzogchen lineages/cycles which reflect Malcolm's POV? honestly i thought there are no cycles nowadays which has little to no deity yoga. i mean even if one would like to follow such an approach it's not possible to practice say Vima Nyingthig?
Dzogchen Community.
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yagmort
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by yagmort »

thanks
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Matt J
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Matt J »

There are many if you look around. It just takes some (fairly minor) effort.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
yagmort
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by yagmort »

Matt J wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:08 pm There are many if you look around. It just takes some (fairly minor) effort.
could you be more specific?
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Matt J
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Matt J »

Yes, but I'm not comfortable with making a public list for folks who just want to check Dzogchen off the list by easily obtaining a pointing out (as appeared to happen in another recent thread). Also, I find that the efforts I have made in obtaining the teachings (which may be of no use to you or anyone else given our differences) have been very useful overall. I received many teachings in the meantime, including teaching I did not know or think I needed.

If some one had just given me a list, I would have been far worse for it. It has been said that the efforts one makes to obtain a practice ensures that one properly values the practices, and that has been true for me. In addition, the journey itself can be quite educational. However, everyone's mileage may vary. I have no doubt that this thread will soon be filled with suggestions.
yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:10 pm
Matt J wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:08 pm There are many if you look around. It just takes some (fairly minor) effort.
could you be more specific?
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:41 pmthanks
But generally, if you want mundane siddhis, then you need to practice some creation stage practice, like Tara, Kilaya, Amitayus, etc. depending on one needs.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
yagmort
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:51 pm But generally, if you want mundane siddhis, then you need to practice some creation stage practice, like Tara, Kilaya, Amitayus, etc. depending on one needs.
no, not really, i m not after mundane siddhis honestly. all i aspire is to see true nature of things, but that's a common. i was just curious if there is any particular dzogchen cycle were you refering to, as all major cycles i know about - longchen nyingtig, chetsün nyingthig, chokling tersar, dudjom tersar, yangti nagpo, rigdzin sögdrup.. - all have deity sadhanas as part of their paths. so when you say "dzogchen community" am i correct assuming you talk about Namkhai Norbu's approach to dzogchen rather than any specific cycle?
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Lobsang Damchoi »

The Dzogchen Community founded by the late Chogyal Namkai Norbu Rinpoche does indeed use deity visualization and recitation of deity mantras. They are also strong in protector practices. Even their Short Tun (practice session text) has a brief section towards the end of deity yoga.

Cultivation of rigpa/primordial awareness is the essential practice--and in a sense everything else is secondary. It's definitely not a _gradual_ path; there is no sense of creation and completion stages. I'll leave to others the question of whether the two phases, T'hreg-chhod and T'hod-gal, are comparable.

There are a few ancillary practices w/ no deity visualization, but most Dzogchen teachers I've experienced seem to regard some form of deity yoga as useful. In D.C. teaching, the use of Vajrayana-type practices was adaptable to personal needs and circumstances (that's a rather clunky way of expressing it--sorry :shr)

L.D.
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:41 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:51 pm But generally, if you want mundane siddhis, then you need to practice some creation stage practice, like Tara, Kilaya, Amitayus, etc. depending on one needs.
no, not really, i m not after mundane siddhis honestly. all i aspire is to see true nature of things, but that's a common. i was just curious if there is any particular dzogchen cycle were you refering to, as all major cycles i know about - longchen nyingtig, chetsün nyingthig, chokling tersar, dudjom tersar, yangti nagpo, rigdzin sögdrup.. - all have deity sadhanas as part of their paths. so when you say "dzogchen community" am i correct assuming you talk about Namkhai Norbu's approach to dzogchen rather than any specific cycle?
Sadhanas can be a part of the path, as a secondary practice. Same is true in the DC. But it is not the main point.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by PeterC »

yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:41 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:51 pm But generally, if you want mundane siddhis, then you need to practice some creation stage practice, like Tara, Kilaya, Amitayus, etc. depending on one needs.
no, not really, i m not after mundane siddhis honestly. all i aspire is to see true nature of things, but that's a common. i was just curious if there is any particular dzogchen cycle were you refering to, as all major cycles i know about - longchen nyingtig, chetsün nyingthig, chokling tersar, dudjom tersar, yangti nagpo, rigdzin sögdrup.. - all have deity sadhanas as part of their paths. so when you say "dzogchen community" am i correct assuming you talk about Namkhai Norbu's approach to dzogchen rather than any specific cycle?
Some of those lineages you mention have manuals for, say, trekchod and onward which are presented as completely freestanding from two stages and could in theory be practiced as such. But I don't think anyone in those lineages would teach them that way. But this is difficult to discuss openly as you get into what the instructions say vs. how lamas present the path, and you end up either discussing secret material or criticizing lamas or both. There are lamas outside of ChNNr's DC who will teach it as a freestanding approach, but not as many as those who teach it as something after three roots.
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by yagmort »

PeterC wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:00 am Some of those lineages you mention have manuals for, say, trekchod and onward which are presented as completely freestanding from two stages and could in theory be practiced as such. But I don't think anyone in those lineages would teach them that way...
this is what i'm saying. i respect the way lineages are represented so if 2 stages are there there must be a purpose and personally i don't think it's appropriate to "dissect" teachings for "just dzogchen" cherry-picking, besides, very few gonna teach you that way even if you wanted to.
but i got very shallow nyingma expertise so i wasn't sure if i overlooked some lineages which keep it "vima nyingthig" way, as Malcolm used it as an example with zero deity yoga.
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by PeterC »

yagmort wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:50 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:00 am Some of those lineages you mention have manuals for, say, trekchod and onward which are presented as completely freestanding from two stages and could in theory be practiced as such. But I don't think anyone in those lineages would teach them that way...
this is what i'm saying. i respect the way lineages are represented so if 2 stages are there there must be a purpose and personally i don't think it's appropriate to "dissect" teachings for "just dzogchen" cherry-picking, besides, very few gonna teach you that way even if you wanted to.
but i got very shallow nyingma expertise so i wasn't sure if i overlooked some lineages which keep it "vima nyingthig" way, as Malcolm used it as an example with zero deity yoga.
What I mean is that in some cases those lineages' texts do not require that you do the two stages or other things preparatory to practicing Dzogchen. That is a convention/custom within the lineage. (Some but not all.) But of course if you receive teachings within a specific lineage you should practice them as the masters who gave you them intended.
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:51 pm
yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:41 pmthanks
But generally, if you want mundane siddhis, then you need to practice some creation stage practice, like Tara, Kilaya, Amitayus, etc. depending on one needs.
According to ChNN in The Crystal the siddhis, like five eyes, are included in the three primordial wisdoms. Tilopa's Ganga Mahamudra also says the worldly siddhis are included in Mahamudra.

The stark fact you reveal is such a practitioner is most unlikely and nonexistent. Deity yoga is worldly. Combined creation and completion is an artifice. Of course one can get worldly siddhis these ways and wisdom as well, in the latter case, with the pith instructions. A Dzogchenpa should have a pretty clear idea about how siddhis emerge within so called quintessential experience. Wisdom must be guarded and not represented falsely. Wisdom is omniscience. The worldly is not a special or case by case advantage. Simply, we must practice what will work in our current situation. Pith instructions can be applied in the worldly. Somehow it is so subtle as to escape even the best of us. It is very cut and dry to remember a picture and whisper syllables. But let's be honest, it is also sort of ridiculous.
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Crazywisdom »

Lobsang Damchoi wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:15 pm The Dzogchen Community founded by the late Chogyal Namkai Norbu Rinpoche does indeed use deity visualization and recitation of deity mantras. They are also strong in protector practices. Even their Short Tun (practice session text) has a brief section towards the end of deity yoga.

Cultivation of rigpa/primordial awareness is the essential practice--and in a sense everything else is secondary. It's definitely not a _gradual_ path; there is no sense of creation and completion stages. I'll leave to others the question of whether the two phases, T'hreg-chhod and T'hod-gal, are comparable.

There are a few ancillary practices w/ no deity visualization, but most Dzogchen teachers I've experienced seem to regard some form of deity yoga as useful. In D.C. teaching, the use of Vajrayana-type practices was adaptable to personal needs and circumstances (that's a rather clunky way of expressing it--sorry :shr)

L.D.
gradual and immediate are extremes related to relative time. we are developing other dimension perception
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Crazywisdom »

yagmort wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:50 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:00 am Some of those lineages you mention have manuals for, say, trekchod and onward which are presented as completely freestanding from two stages and could in theory be practiced as such. But I don't think anyone in those lineages would teach them that way...
this is what i'm saying. i respect the way lineages are represented so if 2 stages are there there must be a purpose and personally i don't think it's appropriate to "dissect" teachings for "just dzogchen" cherry-picking, besides, very few gonna teach you that way even if you wanted to.
but i got very shallow nyingma expertise so i wasn't sure if i overlooked some lineages which keep it "vima nyingthig" way, as Malcolm used it as an example with zero deity yoga.
What if it is the path of picking cherries?
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Crazywisdom »

The key instruction coming out of Mr. Smith's clear letters is the path can be understood from incisive descriptions. No where else will you ever catch some admission like that. So then, if you have those what are you going 'to do?' Gets pretty radically free from that moment, especially if you take Chapter 19 of the Guhyagarbha's samayas as a sort of basic skeletal outline. That is already about do what thou wilt in the spirit of bodhichitta.
yagmort
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by yagmort »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:44 pm What if it is the path of picking cherries?
i guess if this path is backed by a legit guru and an authentic teaching then go for it.
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Re: Dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages?

Post by Passing By »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:48 pm The key instruction coming out of Mr. Smith's clear letters is the path can be understood from incisive descriptions.
Sounds like the teaching style of some Zhang Zhung Nyengyud lamas actually. Might be simply because I never saw it before at least from the retreats I attended, but they don't usually give direct introduction as some form of ceremony or ritual empowerment and instead simply taught pith instructions and texts with all the associated descriptions and similes from said texts then emphasized that the actual introduction is only when you apply the instructions and see your own real face experientially otherwise it's just words and conceptualizations.

Garchen Rinpoche always says something similar like this also
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