Greetings and Request for Guidance

cd347
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:56 pm

Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by cd347 »

Hello everyone, I am seeking guidance regarding my practice.

I have enjoyed a one-to-one relationship with a Theravada teacher for around 4 years. I’ve been given lineage and have been encouraged to begin teaching beginners.

I discovered Dzogchen roughly 2 years ago and became aware of some stress I was creating in my own practice. Significant insights followed. There was a period of 2-3 weeks in which I experienced remarkable freedom. This was not stabilized, however.

I’ve made many readings of Longchenpa’s ‘Precious Treasury of the Basic Space of Phenomena’. This is one of few texts I've found that still appears to hold some mystery, though I feel I understand the basis of the text.

I am content most of the time. Subject/object relativity is seen to be dependently arising when it’s around, which is not often. But when I hear grand descriptions of the vastness of timeless awareness, for example, I find nothing in my own experience that warrants such poetic language. As another example, I cannot say that my day-to-day experience maps to anything like, ‘the inexhaustible enlightened activity of a Buddha for the benefit of all beings’. When I read such descriptions, it seems likely that there is deeper realisation to be experienced, and yet I find that there is little desire to seek anything. Still, there is enough to write this message, and I hope it finds you all well.
Danny
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Danny »

cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:13 pm Hello everyone, I am seeking guidance regarding my practice.

I have enjoyed a one-to-one relationship with a Theravada teacher for around 4 years. I’ve been given lineage and have been encouraged to begin teaching beginners.

I discovered Dzogchen roughly 2 years ago and became aware of some stress I was creating in my own practice. Significant insights followed. There was a period of 2-3 weeks in which I experienced remarkable freedom. This was not stabilized, however.

I’ve made many readings of Longchenpa’s ‘Precious Treasury of the Basic Space of Phenomena’. This is one of few texts I've found that still appears to hold some mystery, though I feel I understand the basis of the text.

I am content most of the time. Subject/object relativity is seen to be dependently arising when it’s around, which is not often. But when I hear grand descriptions of the vastness of timeless awareness, for example, I find nothing in my own experience that warrants such poetic language. As another example, I cannot say that my day-to-day experience maps to anything like, ‘the inexhaustible enlightened activity of a Buddha for the benefit of all beings’. When I read such descriptions, it seems likely that there is deeper realisation to be experienced, and yet I find that there is little desire to seek anything. Still, there is enough to write this message, and I hope it finds you all well.
Is there a question in there? I didn’t see one.
cd347
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by cd347 »

Danny wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:09 pm Is there a question in there? I didn’t see one.
Not exactly, no. I'm just airing my current situation such that anyone who is able and inclined to offer guidance may do so.
Norwegian
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Norwegian »

cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:13 pm Hello everyone, I am seeking guidance regarding my practice.

I have enjoyed a one-to-one relationship with a Theravada teacher for around 4 years. I’ve been given lineage and have been encouraged to begin teaching beginners.

I discovered Dzogchen roughly 2 years ago and became aware of some stress I was creating in my own practice. Significant insights followed. There was a period of 2-3 weeks in which I experienced remarkable freedom. This was not stabilized, however.

I’ve made many readings of Longchenpa’s ‘Precious Treasury of the Basic Space of Phenomena’. This is one of few texts I've found that still appears to hold some mystery, though I feel I understand the basis of the text.

I am content most of the time. Subject/object relativity is seen to be dependently arising when it’s around, which is not often. But when I hear grand descriptions of the vastness of timeless awareness, for example, I find nothing in my own experience that warrants such poetic language. As another example, I cannot say that my day-to-day experience maps to anything like, ‘the inexhaustible enlightened activity of a Buddha for the benefit of all beings’. When I read such descriptions, it seems likely that there is deeper realisation to be experienced, and yet I find that there is little desire to seek anything. Still, there is enough to write this message, and I hope it finds you all well.
Since it's not clear from your post, do you have a qualified Dzogchen teacher, from whom you received Dzogchen? If not, there is no Dzogchen to speak of in any way, and anything you do will remain fruitless.

Of course, if you do, then that's a completely different story. In general then I would recommend that you talk to your teacher about these things, since this is very important for you.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
cd347
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by cd347 »

Norwegian wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:17 pm Since it's not clear from your post, do you have a qualified Dzogchen teacher, from whom you received Dzogchen? If not, there is no Dzogchen to speak of in any way, and anything you do will remain fruitless.

Of course, if you do, then that's a completely different story. In general then I would recommend that you talk to your teacher about these things, since this is very important for you.
I do not have a Dzogchen teacher, no. I only attended a number of open group meetings run by a sangha in the lineage of Wangdor Rinpoche. I then did some research. There does not seem to be unanimous agreement among Dzogchen lineage holders that direct transmission from a teacher is necessary. I make no claim in either direction myself.
Norwegian
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Norwegian »

cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:49 pm There does not seem to be unanimous agreement among Dzogchen lineage holders that direct transmission from a teacher is necessary.
It is of absolute paramount importance to first receive direct introduction from a qualified teacher of Dzogchen. Without this, there is no Dzogchen to speak of at all. Thus, no matter how many texts one may study from Dzogchen, and no matter how much one may practice, there is no Dzogchen studied and no Dzogchen practiced.

If you truly are interested in Dzogchen, you should seek out a qualified teacher from whom you can receive Dzogchen from, in the form of direct introduction, transmission, and teachings. Otherwise you're just wasting your time.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
cd347
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:56 pm

Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by cd347 »

Norwegian wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:23 pm If you truly are interested in Dzogchen, you should seek out a qualified teacher from whom you can receive Dzogchen from, in the form of direct introduction, transmission, and teachings. Otherwise you're just wasting your time.
If this is so, then I must indeed seek out a teacher. Would you be so kind as to explain or point to some explanation of why Dzogchen must be received from a teacher directly?
Tata1
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Tata1 »

cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:49 pm
Norwegian wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:17 pm Since it's not clear from your post, do you have a qualified Dzogchen teacher, from whom you received Dzogchen? If not, there is no Dzogchen to speak of in any way, and anything you do will remain fruitless.

Of course, if you do, then that's a completely different story. In general then I would recommend that you talk to your teacher about these things, since this is very important for you.
8

I do not have a Dzogchen teacher, no. I only attended a number of open group meetings run by a sangha in the lineage of Wangdor Rinpoche. I then did some research. There does not seem to be unanimous agreement among Dzogchen lineage holders that direct transmission from a teacher is necessary. I make no claim in either direction myself.
Absolutly not true. Rigpa tsel wang is indispensable. No debate whatsoever
cd347
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by cd347 »

Tata1 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:17 pm Absolutly not true. Rigpa tsel wang is indispensable. No debate whatsoever
Okay. Please, why is this so?
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heart
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by heart »

cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:27 pm
Tata1 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:17 pm Absolutly not true. Rigpa tsel wang is indispensable. No debate whatsoever
Okay. Please, why is this so?
Because only a person that have gained confidence in the natural state can introduce an other person to the natural state. Also the introduction is just the first step on the path so you need to reconnect with your master again and again.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Tata1
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Tata1 »

cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:27 pm
Tata1 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:17 pm Absolutly not true. Rigpa tsel wang is indispensable. No debate whatsoever
Okay. Please, why is this so?
Because the meditation in dzogchen is to return the the view, and the view in dzogchen is not something conceptual, in order to have the view you need someone who can point that to you, and that someone has to have confidence in that view.

Aaaaand you also need guidance in the rest if the path so you dont frak up
cd347
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by cd347 »

Tata1 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:10 pm Because the meditation in dzogchen is to return the the view, and the view in dzogchen is not something conceptual, in order to have the view you need someone who can point that to you, and that someone has to have confidence in that view.

Aaaaand you also need guidance in the rest if the path so you dont frak up
heart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:04 pm Because only a person that have gained confidence in the natural state can introduce an other person to the natural state. Also the introduction is just the first step on the path so you need to reconnect with your master again and again.

/magnus
I understand. Thank you both. Whether or not there is any genuine realisation here at present, then, seems irrelevant to the necessity of finding a Dzogchen teacher if I wish to investigate further.

It may or may not be worth mentioning that the discovery of Dzogchen I mentioned in the OP was in the form of attendance to a number of open meetings held by a sangha in the lineage of Wangdor Rinpoche. Teachers trained by Lama Candice gave what sounded like pointing out instructions, but Lama Candice was never in attendance herself.
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LhakpaT
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by LhakpaT »

cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:27 pm
Tata1 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:17 pm Absolutly not true. Rigpa tsel wang is indispensable. No debate whatsoever
Okay. Please, why is this so?
I always liked the analogy that it is like someone introducing you to another person. They say to you, "This is Bob." Now you know who Bob is. You may have passed by him a hundred times in the past but you could not recognise him because no one had pointed him out to you.

There is of course more to it than that as well but I found this analogy helpful.
javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:13 pm Hello everyone, I am seeking guidance regarding my practice.

I have enjoyed a one-to-one relationship with a Theravada teacher for around 4 years. I’ve been given lineage and have been encouraged to begin teaching beginners.

I discovered Dzogchen roughly 2 years ago and became aware of some stress I was creating in my own practice. Significant insights followed. There was a period of 2-3 weeks in which I experienced remarkable freedom. This was not stabilized, however.

I’ve made many readings of Longchenpa’s ‘Precious Treasury of the Basic Space of Phenomena’. This is one of few texts I've found that still appears to hold some mystery, though I feel I understand the basis of the text.

I am content most of the time. Subject/object relativity is seen to be dependently arising when it’s around, which is not often. But when I hear grand descriptions of the vastness of timeless awareness, for example, I find nothing in my own experience that warrants such poetic language. As another example, I cannot say that my day-to-day experience maps to anything like, ‘the inexhaustible enlightened activity of a Buddha for the benefit of all beings’. When I read such descriptions, it seems likely that there is deeper realisation to be experienced, and yet I find that there is little desire to seek anything. Still, there is enough to write this message, and I hope it finds you all well.
that's cool, what's the essence of Shakyamunni Buddha according to theravada teachings?
Tata1
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Tata1 »

cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:37 pm
Tata1 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:10 pm Because the meditation in dzogchen is to return the the view, and the view in dzogchen is not something conceptual, in order to have the view you need someone who can point that to you, and that someone has to have confidence in that view.

Aaaaand you also need guidance in the rest if the path so you dont frak up
heart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:04 pm Because only a person that have gained confidence in the natural state can introduce an other person to the natural state. Also the introduction is just the first step on the path so you need to reconnect with your master again and again.

/magnus
I understand. Thank you both. Whether or not there is any genuine realisation here at present, then, seems irrelevant to the necessity of finding a Dzogchen teacher if I wish to investigate further.

It may or may not be worth mentioning that the discovery of Dzogchen I mentioned in the OP was in the form of attendance to a number of open meetings held by a sangha in the lineage of Wangdor Rinpoche. Teachers trained by Lama Candice gave what sounded like pointing out instructions, but Lama Candice was never in attendance herself.
If you are interested in the linage of lama wangdor i recommend Lama Lena. She is teaching online very often.
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Matt J
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Matt J »

I would say that pointing out is the teacher introducing you to the nature of your mind. Sometimes it is done quite formally, with a full ceremony, and sometimes very informally. However, receiving pointing out instructions is not the same as having your nature of mind pointed out. So its not like you "get the pointing out instructions" and you win. Many, perhaps even most, don't get it right away and need to work with a teacher on an ongoing basis (often with additional practices) until they do get it, sometimes receiving many instructions. There are many, many ways to go wrong, because we are quite habituated to concepts and clinging.
cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:37 pm I understand. Thank you both. Whether or not there is any genuine realisation here at present, then, seems irrelevant to the necessity of finding a Dzogchen teacher if I wish to investigate further.

It may or may not be worth mentioning that the discovery of Dzogchen I mentioned in the OP was in the form of attendance to a number of open meetings held by a sangha in the lineage of Wangdor Rinpoche. Teachers trained by Lama Candice gave what sounded like pointing out instructions, but Lama Candice was never in attendance herself.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
PeterC
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by PeterC »

cd347 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:49 pm There does not seem to be unanimous agreement among Dzogchen lineage holders that direct transmission from a teacher is necessary.
Absolutely no ambiguity on that point. No teacher, no introduction, no Dzogchen; reading about and discussing Dzogchen practice could actually be counterproductive because you are more likely to be engaging in mental fabrication.

Unless you’ve had at least a reading transmission of the Longchenpa text you shouldn’t really be reading it either. I mean, anyone can obtain any book and read it, but no genuine teacher would advise you to do that. This is one of the annoyances is the vajrayana - there are texts that I’ve wanted to read for years but can’t arrange the circumstances to get transmission of them. But those are the rules.
cd347
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by cd347 »

LhakpaT wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:46 pm I always liked the analogy that it is like someone introducing you to another person. They say to you, "This is Bob." Now you know who Bob is. You may have passed by him a hundred times in the past but you could not recognise him because no one had pointed him out to you.

There is of course more to it than that as well but I found this analogy helpful.
Beautiful. And, of course, someone who knows Bob intimately is going to give the best introduction :)

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:04 pm that's cool, what's the essence of Shakyamunni Buddha according to theravada teachings?
Dukkha/dukkha-nirodha.

Tata1 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:37 pm If you are interested in the linage of lama wangdor i recommend Lama Lena. She is teaching online very often.
Yes, I've enjoyed some of Lama Lena's YouTube videos. I will try to catch her online. Regarding which lineage I'm interested in, where would I even begin to investigate the differences between Dzogchen lineages?

Matt J wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:11 pm I would say that pointing out is the teacher introducing you to the nature of your mind. Sometimes it is done quite formally, with a full ceremony, and sometimes very informally. However, receiving pointing out instructions is not the same as having your nature of mind pointed out. So its not like you "get the pointing out instructions" and you win. Many, perhaps even most, don't get it right away and need to work with a teacher on an ongoing basis (often with additional practices) until they do get it, sometimes receiving many instructions. There are many, many ways to go wrong, because we are quite habituated to concepts and clinging.
Thank you. I've managed to attenuate conceptual elaboration and clinging quite well in my existing practice, but this is an investigation of Dzogchen and so I'm going to work on the hypothesis that this means nothing until a qualified teacher should tell me otherwise.

PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:58 am Absolutely no ambiguity on that point. No teacher, no introduction, no Dzogchen; reading about and discussing Dzogchen practice could actually be counterproductive because you are more likely to be engaging in mental fabrication.

Unless you’ve had at least a reading transmission of the Longchenpa text you shouldn’t really be reading it either. I mean, anyone can obtain any book and read it, but no genuine teacher would advise you to do that. This is one of the annoyances is the vajrayana - there are texts that I’ve wanted to read for years but can’t arrange the circumstances to get transmission of them. But those are the rules.
Thank you. Regarding this point: 'no teacher, no introduction, no Dzogchen', I take it you are referring to the practice of Dzogchen, as opposed to saying, 'no teacher, no introduction, no primordial state'?

Sorry to hear of your annoyance! May the circumstances you desire come around swiftly.
PeterC
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by PeterC »

cd347 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:49 am Thank you. Regarding this point: 'no teacher, no introduction, no Dzogchen', I take it you are referring to the practice of Dzogchen, as opposed to saying, 'no teacher, no introduction, no primordial state'?
Reading about, talking about or trying to practice Dzogchen without introduction and instruction is like trying to get a sun tan at night, indoors, fully clothed.
Tata1
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Re: Greetings and Request for Guidance

Post by Tata1 »

PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:28 am
cd347 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:49 am Thank you. Regarding this point: 'no teacher, no introduction, no Dzogchen', I take it you are referring to the practice of Dzogchen, as opposed to saying, 'no teacher, no introduction, no primordial state'?
Reading about, talking about or trying to practice Dzogchen without introduction and instruction is like trying to get a sun tan at night, indoors, fully clothed.
I wouldnt go so far. Most of us would be here if we hadnt read a book about dzogchen. There are several open to all

I would recommend The crystal and the way of light and the self perfect state both by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
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