Rainbow body questions

Malcolm
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Malcolm »

fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:47 pm
Norwegian wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:41 pm Except Dzogchen is open to anybody who has an interest in it.
Well - did the author of the question in this thread get an answer other than "go ask teacher"? And did he manage to "go ask teacher"? You are really just juggling with cool words that don't mean so much in actual practical terms.
Correct, because these things need to be heard at the feet of a teacher, not read on a bulletin board.
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heart
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by heart »

Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:26 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:12 am
Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:21 am ok guys..I hear you..thanks
He will insist you do a ngondro.
I know..thats one of the reasons why I haven't gone there before...I have met many Teachers in the past almost 40 years...Norbu is the one that always made sense to me...the way he taught I just got it...ya know what I mean?
I wouldn't assume anything, just go talk with him. You don't need to take his advice if it doesn't make sense to you. No need to get apprehensive. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Fa Dao
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Fa Dao »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:06 pm
Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:39 am and I should add that I am just too damn old, tired, and brain damaged to start off from square one....btw, I wasnt asking about actual techniques/practices, I was just trying to wrap my head around the process, the theoretical side...oh well
You already have enough to do with practicing rushan, etc. These are the preliminary practices for thogal and the enhancement practices for trekcho. Further, while the four visions do occur in longde, Longde texts do not explain the theoretical side. So you should make effort to listen to Lama Chonam's lung of the Tshog don mdzod. That text as the complete theoretical foundation you are looking for. When Norbu Rinpoche gave transmission, he did not just give transmission for one series of Dzogchen or another. He gave a unified transmission. But the instructions for all three series need to be sought out separately. And in the case of Longde, also the Ngondzog Gyalpo empowerment is required.
I did do the Longde retreat..twice... The NG transmission was part of that, right? or are you referring to an actual in person empowerment with all of the bells and whistles? It was my understanding that after doing that retreat with him that I could do the practices associated with it. I will try to get that transmission you mentioned with Lama Chonam to help deepen my understanding of the process. As an aside, I did receive the Yeshe Lama transmission from another Teacher but feel more connected to the Longde...it makes sense to me....
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Fa Dao
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Fa Dao »

But hey, if we are not really supposed to be discussing any of this then maybe the mods should close it, right?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
Simon E.
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Simon E. »

Maybe, but before and if they do I think it’s been useful, and has stayed pretty much this side of what is skillful... :namaste:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Sādhaka
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:02 pm
Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:26 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:12 am

He will insist you do a ngondro.
I know..thats one of the reasons why I haven't gone there before...I have met many Teachers in the past almost 40 years...Norbu is the one that always made sense to me...the way he taught I just got it...ya know what I mean?
Yes. The problem with Dzogchen Community at present is there is no one who is giving transmissions of such things as thogal and yangti inside the community. There are only SMS teachers who continue to give instructions for transmissions they have already received.

Perhaps the following is why:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4052&p=515212&hilit=#p515212

If so, then we have a little over another year to go....
PSM
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by PSM »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:02 pm
Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:26 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:12 am

He will insist you do a ngondro.
I know..thats one of the reasons why I haven't gone there before...I have met many Teachers in the past almost 40 years...Norbu is the one that always made sense to me...the way he taught I just got it...ya know what I mean?
Yes. The problem with Dzogchen Community at present is there is no one who is giving transmissions of such things as thogal and yangti inside the community. There are only SMS teachers who continue to give instructions for transmissions they have already received.
Are there any SMS teachers who are qualified to give such transmissions?
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by heart »

fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:48 am I have never really heard teachers talk openly about topics such as the question asked even to advanced students. The common pattern seems to be: teacher visits place XYZ for a retreat. There gives empowerment, direct introduction, a text is being explained. In astonishingly few cases the teacher also gives you concrete meditation instructions including an explanation of the expected effects. If you are lucky, you get a 10 minutes interview slot in a 2 week retreat with the teacher. After 2 weeks the teacher travels further.
So first I have to say that in 10 minutes a lot can happen. Then to me it seems like many people waste those 10 minutes on complaining about this and that. If you are a Dzogchen practitioner then you should ask about your practice and you should really insist. It is the only way the teacher will understand that you are serious. If your waiting for the teacher to explain Longde to you, with out you asking, you will have to wait until ChNNR is reborn and grown up again. It just doesn't happen without some effort on your side.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Malcolm »

Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:40 pm As an aside, I did receive the Yeshe Lama transmission from another Teacher but feel more connected to the Longde...it makes sense to me....
If you have received Yeshe Lama than you have received all the instructions you need in this life.
Simon E.
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Simon E. »

heart wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:32 pm
fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:48 am I have never really heard teachers talk openly about topics such as the question asked even to advanced students. The common pattern seems to be: teacher visits place XYZ for a retreat. There gives empowerment, direct introduction, a text is being explained. In astonishingly few cases the teacher also gives you concrete meditation instructions including an explanation of the expected effects. If you are lucky, you get a 10 minutes interview slot in a 2 week retreat with the teacher. After 2 weeks the teacher travels further.
So first I have to say that in 10 minutes a lot can happen. Then to me it seems like many people waste those 10 minutes on complaining about this and that. If you are a Dzogchen practitioner then you should ask about your practice and you should really insist. It is the only way the teacher will understand that you are serious. If your waiting for the teacher to explain Longde to you, with out you asking, you will have to wait until ChNNR is reborn and grown up again. It just doesn't happen without some effort on your side.

/magnus
Well said Magnus...
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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jake5521
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by jake5521 »

Yes it is important for you to do your Ngondro!
Danny
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Danny »

Not really, but argument about everything else is secondary to remaining in contemplation would just be treading water whilst going round in circles.

Do what you want.

Regards
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heart
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by heart »

jake5521 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:45 pm Yes it is important for you to do your Ngondro!
Since you are not a teacher you certainly don't know that and anyway this idea that doing Ngondro is compulsory have ruined at lot of peoples practice.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
yagmort
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by yagmort »

heart wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:09 am ...anyway this idea that doing Ngondro is compulsory have ruined at lot of peoples practice...
if that is the case then what is lamas/teacher reaction to the issue?

honestly i've heard of just a few lamas, - in fact just 2: Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, - who wasn't as strict about ngöndro as the majority of other tibetan teachers.

i'm not saying my opinion is in any way valid, but i got the impression ngöndro is mostly mandatory as a foundation because you can not become a dedicated practitioner if you didn't make a habit of breaking the resistance of a rational mind through the boredom of repetition. if course there is much more to ngöndro, but the idea is that you can not expect yourself to really advance on vajrayana path if you didn't make a good work on endless entertainment-seeking and procrastination patterns of everyday mind. that is just imho though.
Danny
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Danny »

That's Dzogchen viewed through a vajrayana practitioners conditioning. But Dzogchen is not a vajrayana transformation path.


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Simon E.
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Simon E. »

Yes it is.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Danny
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Danny »

Simon E. wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:40 amYes it is.
Oh well. :shrug:
Simon E.
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Simon E. »

Dzogchen Atiyoga is one of the three Inner Tantra divisions.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Norwegian
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Norwegian »

Simon E. wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:47 am Dzogchen Atiyoga is one of the three Inner Tantra divisions.
Sutra is the path of renunciation, Tantra is the path of transformation, Dzogchen is the path of self-liberation.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
yagmort
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Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by yagmort »

Danny wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:36 am That's Dzogchen viewed through a vajrayana practitioners conditioning. But Dzogchen is not a vajrayana transformation path.
very well may be.. nonetheless let's say it is mandatory in Dudjom Tersar to finish several ngöndros before you can be introduced to Neluk Rangjung. Malcolm mentioned earlier about Tulku Sangngak as well.. so do you know of any teachers who are ok if you don't do ngöndro?
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