Rainbow body questions

Danny
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Danny »

fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:35 am
Danny wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:07 am That's the self liberation glass ceiling I guess.
Traditionly HYT was never given in large groups, but very intimate setting. Dzogchen was even more intimate. So in many ways we've been very fortunate. An embarrassment of riches.

Regards
So, has Dzogchen always been elitist? Only accessible by a small minority? And, even if it was, should it stay that way?

Assuming, Dzogchen teachings would be available openly to everyone. Would this cause more harm or more benefit to everyone?
No, but I want you to have a real think about what your aiming for. What that actually means in a real sense, in a real practical way.
It is not without its dangers if your not prepared and ready. Then when you understand that, now look back and ask yourself why it is so secret and not open for discussion, it is supremely compassionate and our glass ceiling actually becomes not something of elitism but something of total love and care.

Regards
Norwegian
Posts: 1924
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Norwegian »

Dzogchen is not elitist. It's self-secret. For you to understand anything whatsoever with regards to Dzogchen, you must enter into a student-teacher relationship with a qualified Dzogchen teacher, from whom you receive direct introduction, and teachings and instructions on Dzogchen. Then, you will also likely receive transmission and empowerment of relevant teachings which you then study and put into practice. Dzogchen is a complete path on its own, just like Sutra and Tantra also are complete paths on their own, thus it lacks nothing whatsoever. But, for you to traverse that path, you must have a qualified teacher, and without this, this will all be an intellectual hobby, and to be honest, intellectualizing the teachings is incredibly boring, and one could probably spend ones time a lot better, like taking up gardening, or reading world literature, from the beginnings up until today.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
fckw
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:10 am

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by fckw »

Danny wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:00 pm
So, has Dzogchen always been elitist? Only accessible by a small minority? And, even if it was, should it stay that way?

Assuming, Dzogchen teachings would be available openly to everyone. Would this cause more harm or more benefit to everyone?
No, but I want you to have a real think about what your aiming for. What that actually means in a real sense, in a real practical way.
It is not without its dangers if your not prepared and ready. Then when you understand that, now look back and ask yourself why it is so secret and not open for discussion, it is supremely compassionate and our glass ceiling actually becomes not something of elitism but something of total love and care.

Regards
Now you elegantly circumvented answering my question by asking lots of questions back. ;)

I personally have no definite answer. I don't believe that just because things were handled historically in a certain context in a certain way that it should stay that way. But I also don't think that we should deviate from how things were handled historically in that context without good reasons. Unfortunately, stating this, as intelligent as it may sound perhaps, does not make things any more clear, really.
Danny
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Danny »

Namkhai norbu's voice ringing in my head as I was typing that...

"You must go BEYOND your limitations"

Always with the emphasis on beyond.

Regards
Danny
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Danny »

fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:24 pm Now you elegantly circumvented answering my question by asking lots of questions back. ;)
Lol and rightly so.

Regards
PSM
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by PSM »

I sympathise. The lack of regular, easy access to a teacher, especially to ask questions regarding meditation experiences can be a real impediment, especially in a Dzogchen context. It has definitely hampered my practice.
fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:35 am So, has Dzogchen always been elitist? Only accessible by a small minority? And, even if it was, should it stay that way?
I remember that Malcolm and others have explained that part of the restricted aspect of Dzogchen is in part that it is somewhat politically incorrect with regards to the Tibetan establishment - it's a teaching which says buddhahood is not dependent on merit, i.e. funding big monastic institutions. Obviously that's not really an issue in the West.
fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:48 am But telling others to "go and seek a good teacher" is, in my view, more or less same as telling people off.

Yes, it can be. I've seen it on this site (not this thread) with certain individuals seeming to use it as a hammer on those with legit questions. As if 99% of people wouldn't ask their teacher such questions if they could.
fckw
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:10 am

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by fckw »

Norwegian wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:24 pm Dzogchen is not elitist. It's self-secret. For you to understand anything whatsoever with regards to Dzogchen, you must enter into a student-teacher relationship with a qualified Dzogchen teacher, from whom you receive direct introduction, and teachings and instructions on Dzogchen. Then, you will also likely receive transmission and empowerment of relevant teachings which you then study and put into practice. Dzogchen is a complete path on its own, just like Sutra and Tantra also are complete paths on their own, thus it lacks nothing whatsoever. But, for you to traverse that path, you must have a qualified teacher, and without this, this will all be an intellectual hobby, and to be honest, intellectualizing the teachings is incredibly boring, and one could probably spend ones time a lot better, like taking up gardening, or reading world literature, from the beginnings up until today.
Yeah, that's exactly what I'd expect a member of an elite club to say: You need to become a member of our club first to get access to what we keep control over. :D

Christianity is just as self-secret, yet it is openly accessible to everyone who is inclined to study the, well, Christian practices. Whether or not the majority of practitioners (who constitute a small fraction of Christians anyway) get anywhere with this approach is open for debate.

Just to make it clear: I'm not stating that dzogchen should become openly available to everyone, but I am having doubts about the somewhat stereotype responses you tend to get when you bring the topic up. Most of them tend to be of the type: "It was always like that, so we should keep it up." That's not really an argument, is it?
Danny
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Danny »

Also Dzogchen was and in some places still today deemed a heresy and not authentic.

Regards
Norwegian
Posts: 1924
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Norwegian »

fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:36 pm
Norwegian wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:24 pm Dzogchen is not elitist. It's self-secret. For you to understand anything whatsoever with regards to Dzogchen, you must enter into a student-teacher relationship with a qualified Dzogchen teacher, from whom you receive direct introduction, and teachings and instructions on Dzogchen. Then, you will also likely receive transmission and empowerment of relevant teachings which you then study and put into practice. Dzogchen is a complete path on its own, just like Sutra and Tantra also are complete paths on their own, thus it lacks nothing whatsoever. But, for you to traverse that path, you must have a qualified teacher, and without this, this will all be an intellectual hobby, and to be honest, intellectualizing the teachings is incredibly boring, and one could probably spend ones time a lot better, like taking up gardening, or reading world literature, from the beginnings up until today.
Yeah, that's exactly what I'd expect a member of an elite club to say: You need to become a member of our club first to get access to what we keep control over. :D

Christianity is just as self-secret, yet it is openly accessible to everyone who is inclined to study the, well, Christian practices. Whether or not the majority of practitioners (who constitute a small fraction of Christians anyway) get anywhere with this approach is open for debate.

Just to make it clear: I'm not stating that dzogchen should become openly available to everyone, but I am having doubts about the somewhat stereotype responses you tend to get when you bring the topic up. Most of them tend to be of the type: "It was always like that, so we should keep it up." That's not really an argument, is it?
Except Dzogchen is open to anybody who has an interest in it. That's what you need, an interest and a proper motivation connected to the Bodhicitta of the Bodhisattva.

If you don't like that, then what can I say? Dzogchen is Mahayana. This is all about practice for the benefit of sentient beings, rooted in the ideal of the Bodhisattva. So if benefiting sentient beings sounds good to you and you're interested in Dzogchen, then why not? But if you don't care about these things, like I said, then other things to do are much better, you'll have a lot more fun.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
fckw
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:10 am

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by fckw »

Maybe it's also part of the dzogchen and tantric way of things. You really have to WANT to get those teachings. If you are only half-interested, then this is not enough. These teachings indeed are powerful and therefore precious, and perhaps it's good that it's hard to get them. Simply by accepting the hard way of getting access to them might be part of the path and practice too. I think that's an important aspect not to be underestimated.

But when I hear especially people in their retirement part of life asking questions and receiving stereotype answers then I really wonder whether the answer "go and find teacher" is still appropriate. Those people don't have 30 years left for practice. And who are we to judge whether a specific person would or would not profit from an actual explanation of some subtle points?
Last edited by fckw on Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fckw
Posts: 629
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:10 am

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by fckw »

Norwegian wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:41 pm Except Dzogchen is open to anybody who has an interest in it.
Well - did the author of the question in this thread get an answer other than "go ask teacher"? And did he manage to "go ask teacher"? You are really just juggling with cool words that don't mean so much in actual practical terms.
florin
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by florin »

fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:35 am
Danny wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:07 am That's the self liberation glass ceiling I guess.
Traditionly HYT was never given in large groups, but very intimate setting. Dzogchen was even more intimate. So in many ways we've been very fortunate. An embarrassment of riches.

Regards
So, has Dzogchen always been elitist? Only accessible by a small minority? And, even if it was, should it stay that way?

Assuming, Dzogchen teachings would be available openly to everyone. Would this cause more harm or more benefit to everyone?


Some texts say that if dzogchen teachings would be open To everyone, the majority of beings wouldn’t liberate for eons and eons. And that makes sense.
Last edited by florin on Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Norwegian
Posts: 1924
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Norwegian »

fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:47 pm
Norwegian wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:41 pm Except Dzogchen is open to anybody who has an interest in it.
Well - did the author of the question in this thread get an answer other than "go ask teacher"? And did he manage to "go ask teacher"? You are really just juggling with cool words that don't mean so much in actual practical terms.
He got actual help and good advice.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Simon E. »

Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:39 am and I should add that I am just too damn old, tired, and brain damaged to start off from square one....btw, I wasnt asking about actual techniques/practices, I was just trying to wrap my head around the process, the theoretical side...oh well
If it helps my wife did not start Ngondro until she was in her forth decade. She worked her way slowly through. At times she thought it would never end..but she got there.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 2008
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:35 am
Danny wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:07 am That's the self liberation glass ceiling I guess.
Traditionly HYT was never given in large groups, but very intimate setting. Dzogchen was even more intimate. So in many ways we've been very fortunate. An embarrassment of riches.

Regards
So, has Dzogchen always been elitist? Only accessible by a small minority? And, even if it was, should it stay that way?

Assuming, Dzogchen teachings would be available openly to everyone. Would this cause more harm or more benefit to everyone?
afaik, this kind of methods are keeped secret because produce particular experiences, and because most people, most dharma practitioners, get heavily attached to experiences as they arise. You know that getting attached to experiences actually block them, so it is very easy to block also their path and stain the transmission, affecting everyone.

it is not because "elitism", it is because of safety reasons.

in fact those who get proud and satisfied of getting them are those who get more obstacles for themselves and the transmission.. now i think of it and it is quite a big responsability to for a teacher to manage to teach.

this is how i see it.
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Simon E. »

fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:35 am
Danny wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:07 am That's the self liberation glass ceiling I guess.
Traditionly HYT was never given in large groups, but very intimate setting. Dzogchen was even more intimate. So in many ways we've been very fortunate. An embarrassment of riches.

Regards
So, has Dzogchen always been elitist? Only accessible by a small minority? And, even if it was, should it stay that way?

Assuming, Dzogchen teachings would be available openly to everyone. Would this cause more harm or more benefit to everyone?
Karma Vipaka does not recognise any worldly form of “elitism”. If your karma vipaka is such that the conditions do not arise for you to practice Dzogchen ( substitute any form of Buddhadharma here, Zen, Pureland, anything) in this life then there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.
That is basic Buddhadharma. You make. You get.
No one is trying to recruit anyone to the Dzogchen cause. You are either on or off the bus. There are many Dharma Doors.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Malcolm
Posts: 32811
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Malcolm »

Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:26 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:12 am
Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:21 am ok guys..I hear you..thanks
He will insist you do a ngondro.
I know..thats one of the reasons why I haven't gone there before...I have met many Teachers in the past almost 40 years...Norbu is the one that always made sense to me...the way he taught I just got it...ya know what I mean?
Yes. The problem with Dzogchen Community at present is there is no one who is giving transmissions of such things as thogal and yangti inside the community. There are only SMS teachers who continue to give instructions for transmissions they have already received.
Malcolm
Posts: 32811
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Malcolm »

Fa Dao wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:39 am and I should add that I am just too damn old, tired, and brain damaged to start off from square one....btw, I wasnt asking about actual techniques/practices, I was just trying to wrap my head around the process, the theoretical side...oh well
You already have enough to do with practicing rushan, etc. These are the preliminary practices for thogal and the enhancement practices for trekcho. Further, while the four visions do occur in longde, Longde texts do not explain the theoretical side. So you should make effort to listen to Lama Chonam's lung of the Tshog don mdzod. That text as the complete theoretical foundation you are looking for. When Norbu Rinpoche gave transmission, he did not just give transmission for one series of Dzogchen or another. He gave a unified transmission. But the instructions for all three series need to be sought out separately. And in the case of Longde, also the Ngondzog Gyalpo empowerment is required.
Malcolm
Posts: 32811
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Malcolm »

PSM wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:33 pm
Yes, it can be. I've seen it on this site (not this thread) with certain individuals seeming to use it as a hammer on those with legit questions. As if 99% of people wouldn't ask their teacher such questions if they could.
Frequently, while the questions are legitimate, the forum for answering them [i.e. here] is not suitable, nor is it necessarily appropriate to answer those questions at all, if someone does not have the right qualifications.
Malcolm
Posts: 32811
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Rainbow body questions

Post by Malcolm »

fckw wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:45 pm But when I hear especially people in their retirement part of life asking questions and receiving stereotype answers then I really wonder whether the answer "go and find teacher" is still appropriate. Those people don't have 30 years left for practice. And who are we to judge whether a specific person would or would not profit from an actual explanation of some subtle points?
It is appropriate. Why? Well, because this is an open forum, and such questions need to be answered in a private setting with a qualified teacher.

This is not a proper forum for discussing the intimate details of Dzogchen teachings. So we don't.
Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”