Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

PSM
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Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by PSM »

https://media.sbinstitute.com/courses/d ... om-lingpa/
Lama Alan begins by explaining that rather than meditation, this session will be devoted to a discussion on the way these Dzogchen practices fit into our particular cultural and historical moment. He mentions that while this pandemic is very severe and has created great adversity for many people, most broadly in terms of financial pressure, just like everything else, it will eventually pass. What will not pass, however, is the trajectory we have set as a species in terms of our destruction and pollution of the environment, the effects of which are projected to be catastrophic. Therefore, beyond the current pandemic, we must consider what would be of most benefit for humanity and the planet as a whole moving forward. Lama Alan explains that scientists have already given us the necessary knowledge about the nature of climate change, and that we have already developed the necessary technology to move towards lasting sustainability, but we simply are not taking the action. So, he asks, what is needed to turn things around? The solution he presents is one of a radical inner transformation that causes us to change the way we view reality, and from that, the way we live our lives and the way we look for happiness. It is a shift from materialism, hedonism, and consumerism, to a view that takes into consideration the whole of reality and the true nature of consciousness, and on that basis develops a way of life that aligns with the true nature of authentic wellbeing.

Lama Alan then refers to another prophesy that Dudjom Lingpa received from a dakini saying that if they cultivate the essential practice of Great Transference, one hundred of his disciples will achieve Great Transference Rainbow Body. Lama Alan explains that this is different from the Rainbow Body achieved after death when the body dissolves, which is quite common in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. In the manifestation of Great Transference Rainbow Body, it takes place during one’s life, one’s ordinary form dissolves into the absolute ground of reality, one becomes a completely awakened Buddha, and one is then able to manifest innumerable sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya forms, including one that appears exactly as you appeared to those around you just before you dissolved.

Lama Alan sees only something as powerful as this being capable of truly creating the revolution of perspective and priorities that we need as a species. He then muses on whether or not people of other religious, philosophical, and scientific traditions could potentially achieve this state without “converting” to Buddhism. He cites the examples of this in the Bon tradition of Tibet, and then references other compelling examples of Dzogchen-esque practices and possible manifestations of Rainbow Body in other religious traditions, citing particularly Francis Tiso’s book, Rainbow Body and Resurrection. He explains that the essential Dzogchen practices of shamatha, vipashyana, tekchod, and togyal, are radically empirical and do not explicitly have any cultural or religious trappings, such than someone from any background could in theory take the mind as the path, attain shamatha, and realize the nature of consciousness and the truth of reincarnation. And so on for the rest of the path. Finally, he says that while Dzogchen is certainly imbedded within the context of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, there is no reason why people from other traditions could not have their own preliminary purification practices, their own devotional practices, and then engage in the main Dzogchen practices and achieve all the same realizations as a Buddhist Dzogchen practitioner. And he mentions how wonderful it would be if among these one hundred Great Transference Rainbow Bodies, there were practitioners from many different traditions. This, he suggests, could be something that could actually turn us around. Therefore, he urges those who can commit fully to such a path to do so, and those who at the moment cannot, to support those pursuing this sublime state of realization.
javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

PSM wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:10 pm https://media.sbinstitute.com/courses/d ... om-lingpa/

...And he mentions how wonderful it would be if among these one hundred Great Transference Rainbow Bodies, there were practitioners from many different traditions. This, he suggests, could be something that could actually turn us around. Therefore, he urges those who can commit fully to such a path to do so, and those who at the moment cannot, to support those pursuing this sublime state of realization.
it would be great, however i'm afraid that bureaucracy is what stabilizes this initiatives. in time the holistic approaches becomes another bureaucratic organization or they disappear..

it's complicated
tingdzin
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by tingdzin »

PSM wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:10 pm citing particularly Francis Tiso’s book, Rainbow Body and Resurrection.
Father Tiso seems to be a good man, but the links he perceives between Dzogchen and Christianity are mostly wishful thinking. His knowledge of the relevant aspects of Buddhist history is also sadly deficient. As a single example, he characterizes 4th-century Buddhism as being wholly occupied with scholasticism, when in fact this was a period of great creativity in terms of visionary practices.

As far as Mr. Wallace's other points, few can argue that a radical inner transformation is not necessary to save human existence as we know it. Unfortunately, the momentum of the crowd seems to have precluded that option.
Danny
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by Danny »

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
it would be great, however i'm afraid that bureaucracy is what stabilizes this initiatives. in time the holistic approaches becomes another bureaucratic organization or they disappear..

it's complicated
I think what your saying is conformity leads to despotism

Regards
javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Danny wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:42 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
it would be great, however i'm afraid that bureaucracy is what stabilizes this initiatives. in time the holistic approaches becomes another bureaucratic organization or they disappear..

it's complicated
I think what your saying is conformity leads to despotism

Regards
yes, another word for religion (laughs)

just as buddhadhama became a group of different schools a few years after Buddha's passing, efforts like this soon turns de facto into a religion, or slowly die.

however it would be great to see buddhahood beyhond buddhism and all it's things.
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SkyDragon3
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by SkyDragon3 »

PSM wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:10 pm https://media.sbinstitute.com/courses/d ... om-lingpa/
Therefore, he urges those who can commit fully to such a path to do so, and those who at the moment cannot, to support those pursuing this sublime state of realization.
This last point resonated with me. Can anyone suggest how I may support "those pursuing this sublime state of realization", or even those pursuing the lesser state of "rainbow body" at death?

I have tried sending a message re this as suggested by Alan on that link, but so far there is no clarity. It seems the question cannot be answered. Maybe I am missing the point of the above exhortation, and it has a meaning I do not discern.
GrapeLover
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by GrapeLover »

SkyDragon3 wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 5:26 am
PSM wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:10 pm https://media.sbinstitute.com/courses/d ... om-lingpa/
Therefore, he urges those who can commit fully to such a path to do so, and those who at the moment cannot, to support those pursuing this sublime state of realization.
This last point resonated with me. Can anyone suggest how I may support "those pursuing this sublime state of realization", or even those pursuing the lesser state of "rainbow body" at death?

I have tried sending a message re this as suggested by Alan on that link, but so far there is no clarity. It seems the question cannot be answered. Maybe I am missing the point of the above exhortation, and it has a meaning I do not discern.
Lama Lena recently said that those who want to sponsor practitioners, some of whom are ‘very advanced yogis’, can email her enquiries: [email protected]

Might take a while to hear back though.

Sponsors are also being requested here:
Malcolm
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by Malcolm »

Finally, he says that while Dzogchen is certainly imbedded within the context of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, there is no reason why people from other traditions could not have their own preliminary purification practices, their own devotional practices, and then engage in the main Dzogchen practices and achieve all the same realizations as a Buddhist Dzogchen practitioner.
There are many reasons, not least of which is that this would amount to the ruination of Dzogchen teachings. it would be a tradition that was neither fish nor fowl, and just as impotent.
Pero
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by Pero »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 1:23 pm
Finally, he says that while Dzogchen is certainly imbedded within the context of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, there is no reason why people from other traditions could not have their own preliminary purification practices, their own devotional practices, and then engage in the main Dzogchen practices and achieve all the same realizations as a Buddhist Dzogchen practitioner.
There are many reasons, not least of which is that this would amount to the ruination of Dzogchen teachings. it would be a tradition that was neither fish nor fowl, and just as impotent.
Hmmm, while I personally am not too sure about such an approach, I have to ask - why, if the view is experiental? And all that "post meditation view doesn't matter" thing.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Malcolm
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by Malcolm »

Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 7:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 1:23 pm
Finally, he says that while Dzogchen is certainly imbedded within the context of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, there is no reason why people from other traditions could not have their own preliminary purification practices, their own devotional practices, and then engage in the main Dzogchen practices and achieve all the same realizations as a Buddhist Dzogchen practitioner.
There are many reasons, not least of which is that this would amount to the ruination of Dzogchen teachings. it would be a tradition that was neither fish nor fowl, and just as impotent.
Hmmm, while I personally am not too sure about such an approach, I have to ask - why, if the view is experiental? And all that "post meditation view doesn't matter" thing.
Jesus was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Muhammed was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Mose was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Lao Tsu was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Confucius was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Shankaracarya, etc. were not Dzogchen masters and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings.

At base, if you want to practice Dzogchen, you need to rely on Dzogchen lineage masters.
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heart
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by heart »

Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 7:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 1:23 pm
Finally, he says that while Dzogchen is certainly imbedded within the context of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, there is no reason why people from other traditions could not have their own preliminary purification practices, their own devotional practices, and then engage in the main Dzogchen practices and achieve all the same realizations as a Buddhist Dzogchen practitioner.
There are many reasons, not least of which is that this would amount to the ruination of Dzogchen teachings. it would be a tradition that was neither fish nor fowl, and just as impotent.
Hmmm, while I personally am not too sure about such an approach, I have to ask - why, if the view is experiental? And all that "post meditation view doesn't matter" thing.
It is such weird thing to me, the idea that Dzogchen would make sense within an other religious system, I don't get it.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Pero
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by Pero »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 7:38 pm
Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 7:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 1:23 pm

There are many reasons, not least of which is that this would amount to the ruination of Dzogchen teachings. it would be a tradition that was neither fish nor fowl, and just as impotent.
Hmmm, while I personally am not too sure about such an approach, I have to ask - why, if the view is experiental? And all that "post meditation view doesn't matter" thing.
Jesus was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Muhammed was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Mose was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Lao Tsu was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Confucius was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Shankaracarya, etc. were not Dzogchen masters and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings.

At base, if you want to practice Dzogchen, you need to rely on Dzogchen lineage masters.
Of course but Wallace isn't saying otherwise as far as I can see. You practice whatever and then you get yourself to an introduction and then apply lineage master's teachings. Although the more I think about it the more unsure I am if anyone would even want to do this.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Malcolm
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:03 pm
Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 7:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 1:23 pm

There are many reasons, not least of which is that this would amount to the ruination of Dzogchen teachings. it would be a tradition that was neither fish nor fowl, and just as impotent.
Hmmm, while I personally am not too sure about such an approach, I have to ask - why, if the view is experiental? And all that "post meditation view doesn't matter" thing.
It is such weird thing to me, the idea that Dzogchen would make sense within an other religious system, I don't get it.

/magnus
It's just marketing for perennialists.
Pero
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by Pero »

heart wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:03 pm
Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 7:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 1:23 pm

There are many reasons, not least of which is that this would amount to the ruination of Dzogchen teachings. it would be a tradition that was neither fish nor fowl, and just as impotent.
Hmmm, while I personally am not too sure about such an approach, I have to ask - why, if the view is experiental? And all that "post meditation view doesn't matter" thing.
It is such weird thing to me, the idea that Dzogchen would make sense within an other religious system, I don't get it.

/magnus
Yeah it would be very difficult with many possible negative concequences for the teachings.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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heart
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by heart »

Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:04 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 7:38 pm
Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 7:31 pm
Hmmm, while I personally am not too sure about such an approach, I have to ask - why, if the view is experiental? And all that "post meditation view doesn't matter" thing.
Jesus was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Muhammed was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Mose was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Lao Tsu was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Confucius was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Shankaracarya, etc. were not Dzogchen masters and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings.

At base, if you want to practice Dzogchen, you need to rely on Dzogchen lineage masters.
Of course but Wallace isn't saying otherwise as far as I can see. You practice whatever and then you get yourself to an introduction and then apply lineage master's teachings. Although the more I think about it the more unsure I am if anyone would even want to do this.
You pray to god for a long time, then get the direct introduction?
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Pero
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by Pero »

heart wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:07 pm
Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:04 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 7:38 pm

Jesus was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Muhammed was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Mose was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Lao Tsu was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Confucius was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Shankaracarya, etc. were not Dzogchen masters and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings.

At base, if you want to practice Dzogchen, you need to rely on Dzogchen lineage masters.
Of course but Wallace isn't saying otherwise as far as I can see. You practice whatever and then you get yourself to an introduction and then apply lineage master's teachings. Although the more I think about it the more unsure I am if anyone would even want to do this.
You pray to god for a long time, then get the direct introduction?
Why not? Plenty of people come to the teachings from other religious backgrounds.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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heart
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by heart »

Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:08 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:07 pm
Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:04 pm
Of course but Wallace isn't saying otherwise as far as I can see. You practice whatever and then you get yourself to an introduction and then apply lineage master's teachings. Although the more I think about it the more unsure I am if anyone would even want to do this.
You pray to god for a long time, then get the direct introduction?
Why not? Plenty of people come to the teachings from other religious backgrounds.
:smile: perhaps my understanding monotheistic religions is lacking.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by Malcolm »

Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:04 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 7:38 pm
Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 7:31 pm
Hmmm, while I personally am not too sure about such an approach, I have to ask - why, if the view is experiental? And all that "post meditation view doesn't matter" thing.
Jesus was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Muhammed was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Mose was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Lao Tsu was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Confucius was not a Dzogchen master and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings. Shankaracarya, etc. were not Dzogchen masters and did not transmit Dzogchen teachings.

At base, if you want to practice Dzogchen, you need to rely on Dzogchen lineage masters.
Of course but Wallace isn't saying otherwise as far as I can see.
Sure he is. He is saying, for example, that the Jesus prayer can be a preliminary practice for Dzogchen.

Also, if he actually said this, "such than someone from any background could in theory take the mind as the path, attain shamatha, and realize the nature of consciousness and the truth of reincarnation. And so on for the rest of the path," this just does not work in Dzogchen teachings.

It is a complete abortion of an idea.
Malcolm
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by Malcolm »

Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:08 pm
heart wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:07 pm
Pero wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 8:04 pm
Of course but Wallace isn't saying otherwise as far as I can see. You practice whatever and then you get yourself to an introduction and then apply lineage master's teachings. Although the more I think about it the more unsure I am if anyone would even want to do this.
You pray to god for a long time, then get the direct introduction?
Why not? Plenty of people come to the teachings from other religious backgrounds.
So there is a causal link to praying to god and then getting direct introduction? How does that work? Basically Pero, if you go to receive Dzogchen teachings, you are an Ex-whatever. Oh, sure, you can maintain outward form of a Christian, etc., but if your view does not change, you will not realize the meaning.
Malcolm
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Re: Alan Wallace: Dzogchen, COVID-19 & the prophecy received by Dudjom Lingpa

Post by Malcolm »

PSM wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:10 pm He cites the examples of this in the Bon tradition of Tibet...
Bonpos consider themselves "nang pa", Buddhists, the only significant difference from their point of view is who the original teacher is. But there is no difference in meaning, just slight differences in terms.
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