Decreased interest in Tantric practice

[Malcolm]

One sadhana a day is quite a lot

It's not daily, it's a weekly commitment, and I usually do it with a group.

Anyway, the conflict I'm finding is that my Vajra brothers and sisters with whom I regularly interact in meatspace are not Dzogchenpa for the most part, and tend to be much more excited about and focused on initiations etc. than I am. It's not as if I don't consider what I've received precious, or that I'm trying to throw them out, they just often feel...redundant at this point. I am wondering if that's the wrong way to look at them.

I'd tread carefully. I've found that all Dharma methods I've received can degenerate very swiftly if they are not maintained with great diligence. Once degenerated, they can seem less useful, even meaningless. Then, they can become restored, and one can see how the problem was not in the Dharma method, but in the way it was being treated.

But this is merely the starting point.

The deeper point is to continually meditate on which approach will actually liberate you. It sounds to me like you are gaining confidence that you have a true answer to this, and this at least part of your sense that other ways are redundant.

I can relate; been going through a very similar thing.

The main point is the completion stage. It doesn’t matter much how one gets there.

[tobes]

Indeed, and generation stage is always a contrivance.

But it is also true that the humblest, mostly lowly, most relative/conventional Dharma can have extraordinary potency if it is treated with great diligence and respect.

[heart]

Anyway, the conflict I'm finding is that my Vajra brothers and sisters with whom I regularly interact in meatspace are not Dzogchenpa for the most part, and tend to be much more excited about and focused on initiations etc. than I am. It's not as if I don't consider what I've received precious, or that I'm trying to throw them out, they just often feel...redundant at this point. I am wondering if that's the wrong way to look at them.

“You won't understand anything about the imagination until you realise that it's not about making things up, it's about perception.”

The Secret Commonwealth, Philip Pullman

/magnus

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

I have found my interest in new Tantric practices waning over time. Prior to taking teachings from ChNN I received a lot of initiations, and generally took attending them quite seriously. Since this time I have the reoccurring feeling that I have enough of them, and find it harder to get all ginned up about them. I do one Sadhana regularly and that's about it.

I have an opportunity coming up to receive an empowerment I should probably get, but at the time, I don't feel particularly inspired. I will be attending the retreat where it's being offered regardless.

How does one handle this?

Follow Malcolm's advice. Obstructions like this we need to break through with our own strength of practice. Just practice a lot more, that's my advice.

[amanitamusc]

It's not daily, it's a weekly commitment, and I usually do it with a group.

Anyway, the conflict I'm finding is that my Vajra brothers and sisters with whom I regularly interact in meatspace are not Dzogchenpa for the most part, and tend to be much more excited about and focused on initiations etc. than I am. It's not as if I don't consider what I've received precious, or that I'm trying to throw them out, they just often feel...redundant at this point. I am wondering if that's the wrong way to look at them.

I'd tread carefully. I've found that all Dharma methods I've received can degenerate very swiftly if they are not maintained with great diligence. Once degenerated, they can seem less useful, even meaningless. Then, they can become restored, and one can see how the problem was not in the Dharma method, but in the way it was being treated.

But this is merely the starting point.

The deeper point is to continually meditate on which approach will actually liberate you. It sounds to me like you are gaining confidence that you have a true answer to this, and this at least part of your sense that other ways are redundant.

I can relate; been going through a very similar thing.

The main point is the completion stage. It doesn’t matter much how one gets there.

So the result of the completion stage is resting in ones true nature.

[Vasana]

If I thought there was a chance u would practice it even a frw times, I would receive it, if it doesn't come with strict requirements that are difficult to keep.

Otherwise, just accept that you already have an extensive set of practices you can dip in to already and that not being inspired for more isn't always a bad thing, so long as you're inspired to apply and build upon what you do have.

[Vasana]

Indeed, and generation stage is always a contrivance.

But it is also true that the humblest, mostly lowly, most relative/conventional Dharma can have extraordinary potency if it is treated with great diligence and respect.

There are great Dzogchenpas who value generation stage so I'm not sure it's correct to say it's always a contrivance. There are teachers who explain generation and completion from the side of the ultimate and in terms of cognition.

With that said, it's not for everyone but contrivance is the wrong word to use unless you're speaking exclusively from higher yanas in a triumphalist maner.

[Vasana]

Also J.D - you received some of Rinooche's Longsal cycle. I reccomend reading Rinooche' s accounts of how he received the practices you have transmission for in the Longsal books. It always gives me an inspiration and gratitude boost.

Failing that, the other non tantric, more upadesha style practices and commentaries are a plenty.

[Ayu]

When the honeymoon phase is over is when one decides how and in what way they want the relationship to go.
Some don't make it past the honeymoon with the dharma.

How y'all like my analogies?

They make sense perfectly.

For me it feels like my inner doors are wide open sometimes and at other times they are shut.

I don't know how that happens but it is like that my whole life already. I learned from it: don't take it too seriously and simply keep on trucking. Whether there are rainbows or grey fogs, no matter.

[Tata1]

Are you doing some of tjr sadhanas done by the DC?
For me it was quite tje opposite. The more i felt connected with Rimpoche the more i got hookes up with deity yoga. Something about thr way he explains, thr way the sadhanas are and the conection made my sadhana practice a lot more fluid and less grindy than before

[Johnny Dangerous]

Are you doing some of tjr sadhanas done by the DC?
For me it was quite tje opposite. The more i felt connected with Rimpoche the more i got hookes up with deity yoga. Something about thr way he explains, thr way the sadhanas are and the conection made my sadhana practice a lot more fluid and less grindy than before

No, not really. I memorized the Short Tun and do that sometimes. Like I said though, honestly I currently find Tantric practice on the whole a little tiring, It just feels like work to me now. I've spent the last 4 months maybe more on semde, semde, semde, maybe that's related. I still keep my minimal commitments and do other stuff here and there.

[Soma999]

This situation may have different explanations, and one thing which may help you is devotion.

In tibetan buddhism, there is a huge emphasis on numbers, accumulations, commitment and so on.

And when there is too much "i have to do this", "i have to attain that", too much emphasis on knowledge, sometime devotion is left aside.

If the heart is touched, and deeply touched, you will never need commitment. You will bite people if you don't do your meditation.

In India, they put a huge emphasis on devotion. I think they are on something authentic. Not to say it's better or to make comparison. It's juste they put a lot of emphasis on devotion.

If there is tension, just let go. No deity will bite you if you don't do your "homework". When you cultivate boddicitta, it's the highest commitment, and a practice in itself.

Singing can lead to the heart.

There are four yoga traditionally : Jnana (knowledge between what is real and not), Bhakti (devotion), Karma (selfless action) and Raja (energetic works).

The four should be united. And you have harmony then.

It can also be other problems. To discuss it with someone with real experience both of traditions and human nature can help you. There are also people you can direct you to your heart.

[Sonam Wangchug]

Whether you prefer another focus in your practice life or not, and while i'm sure you do respect your history with tantric practice. It seems a little strange to reduce it, even if just for linguistic convenience as "Bells and whistles".

History has shown, as we can tell from Namthar's or reiterated to us through teachers 'till this day that even highly accomplished Dzogchen masters had demonstrated great devotion, even moved to tears many a time by the so called 'bells and whistles' so it's hard for me to personally conceive of it as being a blessing.

However, if one is on a level like Shakya shri, who after imploring his students to make aspiration prayers and practice commitments in front of a holy Kutsab of Guru rinpoche, and then made his own commitment to never chant a prayer or mantra again, hurling his mala at the statue.. Then of course, but it's my view that until we reach such a citadel of realization it's very useful to rely on the two wings of the bird, of the wisdom and method, relative and ultimate.

I can't comment on anyones level of practice or realization, or whether phenomena are self liberated for them or not, however it would seem that if they are not, then the 'bells and whistles' which are really symbolic of the celestial mansion and pure phenomena of the deities are preferable to the confused perceptions that we beings have.

I respect whatever you have between your teacher and you, and it sounds as though you have multiple, some who might emphasize formal tantric practice more than others, but since you asked the question to the public, am just sharing a perspective.

As far as receiving a wang being redundant, as far as what I have heard from my teacher, to partake of a wang, even if it's one that has already been received prior is still a tremendous purification. & while there are different emphasis' and approach to Dzogchen practice, as I've been taught 'no purification, no Dzogchen' and this was also coming from a line of teachers whose students took rainbow body down to the recent times. So personally I don't think of it as being something gradual and provisional only.

All the best

[Johnny Dangerous]

Whether you prefer another focus in your practice life or not, and while i'm sure you do respect your history with tantric practice. It seems a little strange to reduce it, even if just for linguistic convenience as "Bells and whistles".

I'm not saying it's just bells and whistles, I'm saying that it -HAS- a lot of bells and whistles. Hopefully we don't need to debate that, as some Kriya sadhana pretty much literally have bells and whistles, lol. Annutara and Anuyoga sadhana I can still get into, the simpler the better. I just find myself increasingly annoyed by the exactness and detail of Tantra in places. That's not a commentary on Tantra, but on me. It's funny because originally this is what attracted me to it after years of Zen practice.

History has shown, as we can tell from Namthar's or reiterated to us through teachers 'till this day that even highly accomplished Dzogchen masters had demonstrated great devotion, even moved to tears many a time by the so called 'bells and whistles' so it's hard for me to personally conceive of it as being a blessing.

Sure, but maybe not for me. Sorry if my words offend the standard religious sensibilities, I'm just being honest in asking for advice. On the other hand, I don't know why a mature practitioner would find what I said offensive or derisive. It's just stating where I'm at practice wise, and I don't feel any need to project some image of having perfect devotion to all methods at all times, because I don't.

I can't comment on anyones level of practice or realization, or whether phenomena are self liberated for them or not, however it would seem that if they are not, then the 'bells and whistles' which are really symbolic of the celestial mansion and pure phenomena of the deities are preferable to the confused perceptions that we beings have.

Not sure about that, If I'm at a point where the extravagance inspires nothing but exasperation, why should I continue to practice that way? I always keep my actual commitments, and believe ir or not I'm even the English Umze for one practice, have been for years. Anyway, I'm not necessarily talking about visualization, that part is fine. The part that makes me feel tired is (especially in Kriya and Charya) all the little details, extensive preliminary prayers etc. It almost feels like too many words to actually focus on the experiential content sometimes.

As far as receiving a wang being redundant, as far as what I have heard from my teacher, to partake of a wang, even if it's one that has already been received prior is still a tremendous purification. & while there are different emphasis' and approach to Dzogchen practice, as I've been taught 'no purification, no Dzogchen' and this was also coming from a line of teachers whose students took rainbow body down to the recent times. So personally I don't think of it as being something gradual and provisional only.

All the best

Yes, I am still participating, I feel like one shouldn't pass those opportunities up regardless of bumps in the road. Previous initiations I've done have opened up whole new dimensions in life for me, even when they were practices I felt no particular attachment to.

[Könchok Thrinley]

I am re-reading Blazing Splendor at the moment and there are mentions of nuns and masters, etc. at certain point going to a retreat where they do nothing but sit and develop their ability to rest in the nature of mind. I myself can't imagine just doing that. I am too limited I need my ngöndros. However, I can imagine that some people might be able to do it. Even if just having a glimpse.

So don't worry. Watch yourself, if you see there is need for more elaborate practice do it, if not then don't. Just do your best.

In the end there is nothing to worry about. Semde is a complete practice by itself. And Namkhai Norbu wanted his students to do guru yoga. So, why not really.

I myself love the elaborate. It helps me develop my awareness a bit. Or it seems to do that. Don't get me wrong, it can be a huge pain in the a** and I don't know how I will handle doing elaborate sadhanas in daily life. But I am motivated to try and excited at the thought. Different srokes I guess.

The only thing I would add (and it is competely just my speculation) is that bit more elaborate sadhanas can be used for the benefit of others ie. with the infamous virus at the moment. And that kinda makes them even more worth it for me. But so can probably just resting in the nature of mind, if not more.

[Malcolm]

Semde is a complete practice by itself.

No, this is not correct. Sems sde was integrated with Vajrayāna practice—it was and is never practiced as a stand-alone system. Norbu Rinpoche mentioned this many times.

M

[Könchok Thrinley]

Semde is a complete practice by itself.

No, this is not correct. Sems sde was integrated with Vajrayāna practice—it was and is never practiced as a stand-alone system. Norbu Rinpoche mentioned this many times.

M

My mistake then. What about longde and menangde, are those stand-alone systems?

[Malcolm]

Semde is a complete practice by itself.

No, this is not correct. Sems sde was integrated with Vajrayāna practice—it was and is never practiced as a stand-alone system. Norbu Rinpoche mentioned this many times.

M

My mistake then. What about longde and menangde, are those stand-alone systems?

Yes.

[Tata1]

Whether you prefer another focus in your practice life or not, and while i'm sure you do respect your history with tantric practice. It seems a little strange to reduce it, even if just for linguistic convenience as "Bells and whistles".

I'm not saying it's just bells and whistles, I'm saying that it -HAS- a lot of bells and whistles. Hopefully we don't need to debate that, as some Kriya sadhana pretty much literally have bells and whistles, lol. Annutara and Anuyoga sadhana I can still get into, the simpler the better. I just find myself increasingly annoyed by the exactness and detail of Tantra in places. That's not a commentary on Tantra, but on me. It's funny because originally this is what attracted me to it after years of Zen practice.

History has shown, as we can tell from Namthar's or reiterated to us through teachers 'till this day that even highly accomplished Dzogchen masters had demonstrated great devotion, even moved to tears many a time by the so called 'bells and whistles' so it's hard for me to personally conceive of it as being a blessing.

Sure, but maybe not for me. Sorry if my words offend the standard religious sensibilities, I'm just being honest in asking for advice. On the other hand, I don't know why a mature practitioner would find what I said offensive or derisive. It's just stating where I'm at practice wise, and I don't feel any need to project some image of having perfect devotion to all methods at all times, because I don't.

I can't comment on anyones level of practice or realization, or whether phenomena are self liberated for them or not, however it would seem that if they are not, then the 'bells and whistles' which are really symbolic of the celestial mansion and pure phenomena of the deities are preferable to the confused perceptions that we beings have.

Not sure about that, If I'm at a point where the extravagance inspires nothing but exasperation, why should I continue to practice that way? I always keep my actual commitments, and believe ir or not I'm even the English Umze for one practice, have been for years. Anyway, I'm not necessarily talking about visualization, that part is fine. The part that makes me feel tired is (especially in Kriya and Charya) all the little details, extensive preliminary prayers etc. It almost feels like too many words to actually focus on the experiential content sometimes.

As far as receiving a wang being redundant, as far as what I have heard from my teacher, to partake of a wang, even if it's one that has already been received prior is still a tremendous purification. & while there are different emphasis' and approach to Dzogchen practice, as I've been taught 'no purification, no Dzogchen' and this was also coming from a line of teachers whose students took rainbow body down to the recent times. So personally I don't think of it as being something gradual and provisional only.

All the best

Yes, I am still participating, I feel like one shouldn't pass those opportunities up regardless of bumps in the road. Previous initiations I've done have opened up whole new dimensions in life for me, even when they were practices I felt no particular attachment to.

Maybe you could try one of Chnn sadhanas. I think they are more suitable for westerns. I find them more "essential" than the others i engaged in. It worked for me in a similar situation but thats just my experience.

You see what works for you. As others have said Guru Yoga.is the main point

[Johnny Dangerous]

Whether you prefer another focus in your practice life or not, and while i'm sure you do respect your history with tantric practice. It seems a little strange to reduce it, even if just for linguistic convenience as "Bells and whistles".

I'm not saying it's just bells and whistles, I'm saying that it -HAS- a lot of bells and whistles. Hopefully we don't need to debate that, as some Kriya sadhana pretty much literally have bells and whistles, lol. Annutara and Anuyoga sadhana I can still get into, the simpler the better. I just find myself increasingly annoyed by the exactness and detail of Tantra in places. That's not a commentary on Tantra, but on me. It's funny because originally this is what attracted me to it after years of Zen practice.

History has shown, as we can tell from Namthar's or reiterated to us through teachers 'till this day that even highly accomplished Dzogchen masters had demonstrated great devotion, even moved to tears many a time by the so called 'bells and whistles' so it's hard for me to personally conceive of it as being a blessing.

Sure, but maybe not for me. Sorry if my words offend the standard religious sensibilities, I'm just being honest in asking for advice. On the other hand, I don't know why a mature practitioner would find what I said offensive or derisive. It's just stating where I'm at practice wise, and I don't feel any need to project some image of having perfect devotion to all methods at all times, because I don't.

I can't comment on anyones level of practice or realization, or whether phenomena are self liberated for them or not, however it would seem that if they are not, then the 'bells and whistles' which are really symbolic of the celestial mansion and pure phenomena of the deities are preferable to the confused perceptions that we beings have.

Not sure about that, If I'm at a point where the extravagance inspires nothing but exasperation, why should I continue to practice that way? I always keep my actual commitments, and believe ir or not I'm even the English Umze for one practice, have been for years. Anyway, I'm not necessarily talking about visualization, that part is fine. The part that makes me feel tired is (especially in Kriya and Charya) all the little details, extensive preliminary prayers etc. It almost feels like too many words to actually focus on the experiential content sometimes.

As far as receiving a wang being redundant, as far as what I have heard from my teacher, to partake of a wang, even if it's one that has already been received prior is still a tremendous purification. & while there are different emphasis' and approach to Dzogchen practice, as I've been taught 'no purification, no Dzogchen' and this was also coming from a line of teachers whose students took rainbow body down to the recent times. So personally I don't think of it as being something gradual and provisional only.

All the best

Yes, I am still participating, I feel like one shouldn't pass those opportunities up regardless of bumps in the road. Previous initiations I've done have opened up whole new dimensions in life for me, even when they were practices I felt no particular attachment to.

Maybe you could try one of Chnn sadhanas. I think they are more suitable for westerns. I find them more "essential" than the others i engaged in. It worked for me in a similar situation but thats just my experience.

You see what works for you. As others have said Guru Yoga.is the main point

Yeah, Like I said, I did memorize the Short Tun and definitely like the practice. I have worked with the a couple of the Anuyoga sadahanas as well, and definitely appreciate their simplicity.