sems and rigpa

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futerko
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Re: sems and rigpa

Post by futerko »

The difference here is that there are two different schema used in Dzogchen teachings

There is the distinction between rigpa and marigpa, and there is the distinction within marigpa claiming that the appearance of the base (alaya) is the basis for both samsara and nirvana (following Nagarjuna's argument)

This is what distinguishes between Dzogchen and Mahayana/Vajrayana (ask Malcolm about the Dalai Lama's concept of the clear light nature of mind found in his understanding of Dzogchen and Longchenpa's concept of rigpa - they are not located the same way, the first is in-mind while the second is nature of mind)

As I understand it, the distinction is made here - there is no view of the relative from the perspective of the ultimate - the view is either the relative's understanding of the ultimate, or no-view at all - the latter being classified as superior in the Dzogchen teachings, and conforming more perfectly to the Madhyamaka analysis in terms of the location of non-duality. (i.e. the first is the perception of the non-dual, the second is the realisation of it in concrete terms)
Last edited by futerko on Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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heart
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Re: sems and rigpa

Post by heart »

Josef wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:02 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:42 pm
Josef wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:37 pm

There’s no problem with saying sems is confused, as you do here. The problem is in saying that sems=confusion. Confusion can be an aspect of sems but it is obviously not what it is, period.
You are using sems as referring to mindstream as such, in the broadest sense of the word -- which is presently under delusion but ultimately self-perfected.

Magnus is using it to refer solely to mindstream as it is under delusion. That is why he says that sems = confusion.

In terms of his definition it does not matter much whether you say that sems is confused or that it is confusion. In yours the difference is crucial.
I find it extremely unlikely that Magnus realizes this distinction.
Sems is exactly this distinction, it have no other meaning. You should know this.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: sems and rigpa

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

heart wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:22 pm
Josef wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:02 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:42 pm

You are using sems as referring to mindstream as such, in the broadest sense of the word -- which is presently under delusion but ultimately self-perfected.

Magnus is using it to refer solely to mindstream as it is under delusion. That is why he says that sems = confusion.

In terms of his definition it does not matter much whether you say that sems is confused or that it is confusion. In yours the difference is crucial.
I find it extremely unlikely that Magnus realizes this distinction.
Sems is exactly this distinction, it have no other meaning. You should know this.

/magnus
Achard notes in his translation of Six Lamps that in rare cases the word sems is actually used the way Josef used it.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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futerko
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Re: sems and rigpa

Post by futerko »

In plain speech - if there is any perception or experience at all, it is evidence of the appearance of the basis (gzhi-snang) - from here it can either be recognised as mere appearance or not.

This way, one can distinguish tantra as continuation of dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya, or full and absolute cessation (recognised not as non-being but rather as mind returning to it's natural state (gzhi) without any manifestation its own appearance (gzhi-snang))

therefore when we say that rigpa is knowing - it is not a knowing which resembles knowledge (sems) - but no object is discarded here, it is simply that the space that sems occupied becomes yeshes - Longchenpa says something like, self-appearances of intrinsic awareness flash out from the basis as the eight spontaneously accomplished doors (lhun-grub kyi sgo-bgyad) as the space for arising of... 1, ceaseless compassion towards living beings 2, self-lights as rainbow colours pervading all appearances 3, no-thoughts as wisdom 4, bodies of clarity (peaceful and wrathful deities) 5, non-duality, no analysis as plural or singular 6, liberated from extremes, spontaneous accomplishments are clear as self-essence 7, nirvana, originally pure essence, cloudless sky-like appearances appear above 8, samsara, six classes of beings appear below.
Last edited by futerko on Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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heart
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Re: sems and rigpa

Post by heart »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:43 pm
heart wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:22 pm
Josef wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:02 pm
I find it extremely unlikely that Magnus realizes this distinction.
Sems is exactly this distinction, it have no other meaning. You should know this.

/magnus
Achard notes in his translation of Six Lamps that in rare cases the word sems is actually used the way Josef used it.
That is possible, I don't really know. But not in any of the Dzogchen teachings I received.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: sems and rigpa

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Locked for later review.

EDIT: Giving everyone a break, and feeling a little regretful I ever brought this subject up, since we couldn't discuss it without animosity.

Maybe we can resume later on when people are ready.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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