The difference here is that there are two different schema used in Dzogchen teachings
There is the distinction between rigpa and marigpa, and there is the distinction within marigpa claiming that the appearance of the base (alaya) is the basis for both samsara and nirvana (following Nagarjuna's argument)
This is what distinguishes between Dzogchen and Mahayana/Vajrayana (ask Malcolm about the Dalai Lama's concept of the clear light nature of mind found in his understanding of Dzogchen and Longchenpa's concept of rigpa - they are not located the same way, the first is in-mind while the second is nature of mind)
As I understand it, the distinction is made here - there is no view of the relative from the perspective of the ultimate - the view is either the relative's understanding of the ultimate, or no-view at all - the latter being classified as superior in the Dzogchen teachings, and conforming more perfectly to the Madhyamaka analysis in terms of the location of non-duality. (i.e. the first is the perception of the non-dual, the second is the realisation of it in concrete terms)
sems and rigpa
Re: sems and rigpa
Last edited by futerko on Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: sems and rigpa
Sems is exactly this distinction, it have no other meaning. You should know this.Josef wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:02 pmI find it extremely unlikely that Magnus realizes this distinction.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:42 pmYou are using sems as referring to mindstream as such, in the broadest sense of the word -- which is presently under delusion but ultimately self-perfected.
Magnus is using it to refer solely to mindstream as it is under delusion. That is why he says that sems = confusion.
In terms of his definition it does not matter much whether you say that sems is confused or that it is confusion. In yours the difference is crucial.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: sems and rigpa
Achard notes in his translation of Six Lamps that in rare cases the word sems is actually used the way Josef used it.heart wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:22 pmSems is exactly this distinction, it have no other meaning. You should know this.Josef wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:02 pmI find it extremely unlikely that Magnus realizes this distinction.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:42 pm
You are using sems as referring to mindstream as such, in the broadest sense of the word -- which is presently under delusion but ultimately self-perfected.
Magnus is using it to refer solely to mindstream as it is under delusion. That is why he says that sems = confusion.
In terms of his definition it does not matter much whether you say that sems is confused or that it is confusion. In yours the difference is crucial.
/magnus
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.
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Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.
Edmond Jabès
Re: sems and rigpa
In plain speech - if there is any perception or experience at all, it is evidence of the appearance of the basis (gzhi-snang) - from here it can either be recognised as mere appearance or not.
This way, one can distinguish tantra as continuation of dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya, or full and absolute cessation (recognised not as non-being but rather as mind returning to it's natural state (gzhi) without any manifestation its own appearance (gzhi-snang))
therefore when we say that rigpa is knowing - it is not a knowing which resembles knowledge (sems) - but no object is discarded here, it is simply that the space that sems occupied becomes yeshes - Longchenpa says something like, self-appearances of intrinsic awareness flash out from the basis as the eight spontaneously accomplished doors (lhun-grub kyi sgo-bgyad) as the space for arising of... 1, ceaseless compassion towards living beings 2, self-lights as rainbow colours pervading all appearances 3, no-thoughts as wisdom 4, bodies of clarity (peaceful and wrathful deities) 5, non-duality, no analysis as plural or singular 6, liberated from extremes, spontaneous accomplishments are clear as self-essence 7, nirvana, originally pure essence, cloudless sky-like appearances appear above 8, samsara, six classes of beings appear below.
This way, one can distinguish tantra as continuation of dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya, or full and absolute cessation (recognised not as non-being but rather as mind returning to it's natural state (gzhi) without any manifestation its own appearance (gzhi-snang))
therefore when we say that rigpa is knowing - it is not a knowing which resembles knowledge (sems) - but no object is discarded here, it is simply that the space that sems occupied becomes yeshes - Longchenpa says something like, self-appearances of intrinsic awareness flash out from the basis as the eight spontaneously accomplished doors (lhun-grub kyi sgo-bgyad) as the space for arising of... 1, ceaseless compassion towards living beings 2, self-lights as rainbow colours pervading all appearances 3, no-thoughts as wisdom 4, bodies of clarity (peaceful and wrathful deities) 5, non-duality, no analysis as plural or singular 6, liberated from extremes, spontaneous accomplishments are clear as self-essence 7, nirvana, originally pure essence, cloudless sky-like appearances appear above 8, samsara, six classes of beings appear below.
Last edited by futerko on Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: sems and rigpa
That is possible, I don't really know. But not in any of the Dzogchen teachings I received.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:43 pmAchard notes in his translation of Six Lamps that in rare cases the word sems is actually used the way Josef used it.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: sems and rigpa
Locked for later review.
EDIT: Giving everyone a break, and feeling a little regretful I ever brought this subject up, since we couldn't discuss it without animosity.
Maybe we can resume later on when people are ready.
EDIT: Giving everyone a break, and feeling a little regretful I ever brought this subject up, since we couldn't discuss it without animosity.
Maybe we can resume later on when people are ready.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama