Troma nagmo and rainbow body
Troma nagmo and rainbow body
So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
If I remember correctly, Malcolm mentioned that Düdjom's Tröma Nakmo incldes Thögal...
This would explain that...
This would explain that...
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
It isn't the deity per se ,it is the cycle of practice. The throma cycle is a complete path containing trechö and tögal. There is an other cycle by Dudjom Lingpa based on Vajrakilaya that also is a complete path. In fact there are many such cycles. Just doing a a short daily practice from these cycles isn't (normally) enough.Oklahoma wrote: ↑Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:40 pm So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
Hmmm, who knew. And here I was thinking Dzogchen practices were their own thing and that each deity sadhana was its own thing.heart wrote:It isn't the deity per se ,it is the cycle of practice. The throma cycle is a complete path containing trechö and tögal. There is an other cycle by Dudjom Lingpa based on Vajrakilaya that also is a complete path. In fact there are many such cycles. Just doing a a short daily practice from these cycles isn't (normally) enough.Oklahoma wrote: So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
magnus
But definitely thanks for explaining that interesting point. I did however wonder at the fact that Troma sadhana has Dzogchen teachings imbedded into the puja text and the whole sadhana itself has the energy of spaciousness and no boundaries against demons, for lack of a better way of explaining it, whereas all other deity puja texts are more “tantric” for lack of a better term, and not as as remotely as dzogchen-y as Troma, and with Vajrakila especially being very boundary oriented, Always wondered about that too come to think of it...
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
I think you will find that the vast majority of practices have, as their ultimate aim, the realisation of Dzogchen.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
In some Nyingtig cycles the deity is the uncommon stage of development; while rushan, trecho and togal would be designated as the uncommon stage of completion.Oklahoma wrote: ↑Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:40 am
Hmmm, who knew. And here I was thinking Dzogchen practices were their own thing and that each deity sadhana was its own thing.
But definitely thanks for explaining that interesting point. I did however wonder at the fact that Troma sadhana has Dzogchen teachings imbedded into the puja text and the whole sadhana itself has the energy of spaciousness and no boundaries against demons, for lack of a better way of explaining it, whereas all other deity puja texts are more “tantric” for lack of a better term, and not as as remotely as dzogchen-y as Troma, and with Vajrakila especially being very boundary oriented, Always wondered about that too come to think of it...
Some practice cycles are vast and contain many levels of accompanying sadhana and the key points.
Some are concise yet profound in only containing one sadhana and the key points.
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
In the Nyingma there are a number of terma practice cycles which combine Maha Anu and Ati yogas, which both build from the realization or adepthood of Mahayoga to higher capacity for accomplishment in Anuyoga, and so forth with Anu to Ati. At the same time, the Ati yoga view generally informs Mahayoga and Anuyoga practice in very significant and profound ways.. so much so that’s it’s really quite hard to make more than the most provisional of labels separating them for practical reference points. This all is in the scope of the 9 Yana Nyingma system, and it’s the most widespread and common approach to Dzogchen really. With the Chöd unique to Dudjom Lingpa’s Troma cycle, really it functions as an active practice of Trekchod.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
Other sadhanas also have trechö and tögal instructions imbedded in the text, even if it don't always show. Vajrakilaya is a major mahayoga yidam practice in the Nyingma but that doesn't mean there are not both Anu yoga and Ati yoga sadhanas of Kilaya as well as instructions in trechö and tögal. Even the Sakya Khon tradition of Phurbha have such instructions.Oklahoma wrote: ↑Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:40 amHmmm, who knew. And here I was thinking Dzogchen practices were their own thing and that each deity sadhana was its own thing.heart wrote:It isn't the deity per se ,it is the cycle of practice. The throma cycle is a complete path containing trechö and tögal. There is an other cycle by Dudjom Lingpa based on Vajrakilaya that also is a complete path. In fact there are many such cycles. Just doing a a short daily practice from these cycles isn't (normally) enough.Oklahoma wrote: So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
magnus
But definitely thanks for explaining that interesting point. I did however wonder at the fact that Troma sadhana has Dzogchen teachings imbedded into the puja text and the whole sadhana itself has the energy of spaciousness and no boundaries against demons, for lack of a better way of explaining it, whereas all other deity puja texts are more “tantric” for lack of a better term, and not as as remotely as dzogchen-y as Troma, and with Vajrakila especially being very boundary oriented, Always wondered about that too come to think of it...
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
To be fair, you make it sound Sakya however it’s a Nyingmaheart wrote: Even the Sakya Khon tradition of Phurbha have such instructions.
/magnus
Kama Vajrakilaya practice that the Khon family kept preserved, not a Sarma practice.. so it makes sense that it’d follow the same trends as other Nyingma Mahayoga sadhanas. I’m sure you know this Magnus I’m just helping clarify for others benefit.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
Yes, of course, wasn't my intention.Adamantine wrote: ↑Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:16 pmTo be fair, you make it sound Sakya however it’s a Nyingmaheart wrote: Even the Sakya Khon tradition of Phurbha have such instructions.
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
There is a Togal commentary connected with the Kandro Tuktik of Dujom Lingpa. It's been translated multiple times. Maybe published also in one of Alan Wallace's books but I haven't really looked at those. There are unique features to the practice in Dujom Lingpa's explanation.
I don't any one aspect of the Troma practice, least of all perhaps the mantra, explains why it is so powerful and why so many practitioners have attained rainbow body because of it. The standard tsok is five hours, or even eight hours long. And those texts recited in Tsok are just a few of the texts and practices associated with Troma. It's a very thorough approach, and very powerful. You're totally covered, as much as you can practice it.
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
Certain HYT practices lead to RB. Although Malcolm said this RB is different from the DZ RB.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
Actually not to split hairs however the Khandro Thuktig cycle is HH Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje’s terma revelation, not his predecessor Dudjom Lingpa’s. Of course they’re one and the same in essence, however these are how the cycles are categorized. So the Khandro Thuktig is fresher, so to speak...Vaktar wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:30 pmThere is a Togal commentary connected with the Kandro Tuktik of Dujom Lingpa. It's been translated multiple times. Maybe published also in one of Alan Wallace's books but I haven't really looked at those. There are unique features to the practice in Dujom Lingpa's explanation.
I don't any one aspect of the Troma practice, least of all perhaps the mantra, explains why it is so powerful and why so many practitioners have attained rainbow body because of it. The standard tsok is five hours, or even eight hours long. And those texts recited in Tsok are just a few of the texts and practices associated with Troma. It's a very thorough approach, and very powerful. You're totally covered, as much as you can practice it.
There is Togal in Dudjom Lingpa’s Troma cycle too of course.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
Realized you may have been referring to the Dakini Heart Essence title of the togal commentary from the Troma cycle... when you said “connected with” it sounded like you were referring to a larger revelatory cycle such as the Khandro Thuktig/ Yeshe Tsogyal terma cycle which also includes togal instructions.Adamantine wrote: ↑Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:24 amActually not to split hairs however the Khandro Thuktig cycle is HH Dudjom Rinpoche, Jigdral Yeshe Dorje’s terma revelation, not his predecessor Dudjom Lingpa’s. Of course they’re one and the same in essence, however these are how the cycles are categorized. So the Khandro Thuktig is fresher, so to speak...Vaktar wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:30 pmThere is a Togal commentary connected with the Kandro Tuktik of Dujom Lingpa. It's been translated multiple times. Maybe published also in one of Alan Wallace's books but I haven't really looked at those. There are unique features to the practice in Dujom Lingpa's explanation.
I don't any one aspect of the Troma practice, least of all perhaps the mantra, explains why it is so powerful and why so many practitioners have attained rainbow body because of it. The standard tsok is five hours, or even eight hours long. And those texts recited in Tsok are just a few of the texts and practices associated with Troma. It's a very thorough approach, and very powerful. You're totally covered, as much as you can practice it.
There is Togal in Dudjom Lingpa’s Troma cycle too of course.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
IMO this type of Upadesha realization has much less to do with the particular method, and everything to do with the realization of the teacher and purity of the close lineage between master & disciple. Assuming a totally realized teacher and unbroken lineage, the only other major factor in my mind is the diligence and capacity of the disciple. Samaya is the root of realization.Oklahoma wrote: ↑Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:40 pm So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
Excellent post. So the fact that Dudjom Lingpa discovered this terma and 13 of his close disciples attained full realisation is the reason that terma lineages where so popular in Tibet.Drenpa wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 1:39 amIMO this type of Upadesha realization has much less to do with the particular method, and everything to do with the realization of the teacher and purity of the close lineage between master & disciple. Assuming a totally realized teacher and unbroken lineage, the only other major factor in my mind is the diligence and capacity of the disciple. Samaya is the root of realization.Oklahoma wrote: ↑Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:40 pm So it is said that thirteen of the initial practitioners of the Dudjom troma nagmo sadhana attained rainbow body. And more attained it in the subsequent generation.
What makes this mantra/sadhana/deity so special that it can lead to that, as opposed to all other mantras? Can Vajrakila do the same for example?
Usually we associate rainbow body with thogal, or perhaps chulen, but generally not as the fruit of a mantra/sadhana/deity. Did those troma practitioners also practice thogal on the side and that’s what really did it?
Otherwise is it because the mantra has the five dakini syllables, and they have the power to purify the five elements of our bodies and dissolve them one into the other?
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
Dudjom Tersar Throma is not just a single sadhana. It contains the whole path from ngondro to thodgal.
That being said, I totally agree that without pure samaya, there's no rainbow body.
That being said, I totally agree that without pure samaya, there's no rainbow body.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
The cycle also includes a unique Troma togal guru yoga, that is practiced for six months in retreat.
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
I don't understand why one will need trekchod and togal to attain rainbow body. The chinese site reported that a Nyingma lama who refused to practice any other methods other than mandala offering has attained rainbow body.
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Re: Troma nagmo and rainbow body
I wonder where you’d get that kind of idea....And here I was thinking Dzogchen practices were their own thing and that each deity sadhana was its own thing.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)