gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

amanitamusc
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by amanitamusc »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:47 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:23 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:12 am

The question isn't about Shamatha though!

What I meant was, when you begin a session, if you practice shamatha for a few minutes or whatever, practice with eyes open,
but then you can close them if needed to help focus on visualization.
It doesn't have to be all one way or the other.
.
.
.

Right, but the question is specifically about instructions for Dzogchen contemplation...not necessarily shamatha. That isn't to say it's irrelevant information, but there are lots of instruction for shamatha, and they may nor may not sync up with instructions on contemplation.
In the book "Talks From Conway' ChNNR. taught the 5 aspects of contemplation.page 14 line 27 to page 16 line 46
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by haha »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:06 am
Based on one non-buddhist lecture, blinking of eye is connected with Prana and movement of citta.
Based on Vajrayana teaching, eyes are linked with Thought channel.
Rigpa is recognizable without actively stopping the grosser levels of mental activity and of energy-wind as the method to recognize it. When recognized and accessed, however, the grosser levels automatically stop functioning.
dzogchen-in-comparison-with-other-buddhist-systems
Such references indicate the importance of working with eyes.
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by LolCat »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:14 am
LolCat wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:53 pm I see, thank you. My confusion arose from something I read Malcolm say a long time back, about how you are supposed to be in the state of contemplation throughout the practice, but I suppose that is when you have enough stability to be capable of such a thing.
I was thinking of Rinpoche's Green Tara practice, just to be clear.
ChNN's Green Tara practice we use more in IDC was composed also for give example of a simple way to apply the essence of the practice of meditation and of the recitation of mantras according to the three series of outer tantras (Kriya Tantra, Charya or Ubhaya Tantra, and Yoga Tantra).

For more detail consult "The Precious Vase", Chapter 6 "The Practice of Meditation", number 3 "The way to practice the essence of the Outer Tantras".

If you have transmission of the Adzom Drukpa's Arya Tara Terma teaching, then i don't know if it belongs to Anuyoga system. I say this because in the Anuyoga way we don't need the entire saddhana to apply it's fundamental point (this is why ChNN transmissions of Anuyoga was almost only mantras), being this different from the outer tantras and Mahayoga. Note: (Inner Tantras are Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga -Dzogchen, in tibetan-)

If someone can confirm to which system the Adzom Drukpa's Arya Tara Terma teaching belongs I would be thankfull, so we all know that way of application is the same or not as the ChNN IDC Yoga of Arya Tara.
Haven't logged in for a while, so sorry for the late response, but thank you, I will take a look at the chapter in The Previous Vase!
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

LolCat wrote: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:56 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:14 am
LolCat wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:53 pm I see, thank you. My confusion arose from something I read Malcolm say a long time back, about how you are supposed to be in the state of contemplation throughout the practice, but I suppose that is when you have enough stability to be capable of such a thing.
I was thinking of Rinpoche's Green Tara practice, just to be clear.
ChNN's Green Tara practice we use more in IDC was composed also for give example of a simple way to apply the essence of the practice of meditation and of the recitation of mantras according to the three series of outer tantras (Kriya Tantra, Charya or Ubhaya Tantra, and Yoga Tantra).

For more detail consult "The Precious Vase", Chapter 6 "The Practice of Meditation", number 3 "The way to practice the essence of the Outer Tantras".

If you have transmission of the Adzom Drukpa's Arya Tara Terma teaching, then i don't know if it belongs to Anuyoga system. I say this because in the Anuyoga way we don't need the entire saddhana to apply it's fundamental point (this is why ChNN transmissions of Anuyoga was almost only mantras), being this different from the outer tantras and Mahayoga. Note: (Inner Tantras are Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga -Dzogchen, in tibetan-)

If someone can confirm to which system the Adzom Drukpa's Arya Tara Terma teaching belongs I would be thankfull, so we all know that way of application is the same or not as the ChNN IDC Yoga of Arya Tara.
Haven't logged in for a while, so sorry for the late response, but thank you, I will take a look at the chapter in The Previous Vase!
You welcome :)
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by Ogyen »

Open eyes, looking up accelerates thoughts arising. Open eyes looking down slows down thoughts arising. Depending on the practice you may want to cause these conditions.

Somewhat closed eyes (3/4) I was told by various Nyingma teachers is best for contemplation, as closed makes you lose an important sense channel that keeps you present (through sight) and if you get sleepy that's not at all desirable.

In the Song of Vajra I was told I could close my eyes and stay however I was most comfortable. The point is to relax.

Other practices, contemplation with eyes fully open is for full focus and awareness where the consciousness is through the eyes.

I think the open closed eyes really is dependent on the practice and the results one is looking to achieve with that practice. Normally we receive clear instructions on the specific practice with the eyes if there is an importance to it.

I haven't seen any single eye-position fitting all practices.

:meditate:
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I feel like I should have thought about it more before asking starting the thread, but as we get into territory that is maybe not great for public discussion, i'd ask everyone to err on the side of caution.
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by passel »

Yes, let's all lock our own eyeballs behind museum glass
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:06 am I've gotten a few different pronouncements on why one should have eyes open during contemplation, rather than closed. I notice though that some teachers and students, and well, sometimes even ChNN Rinpoche had his eyes closed at times.

I am wondering if there is any true rule, or if it just a "best practice", whether people have specific citations etc. Note, I do understand the importance of the gaze related to the channels etc...I just notice plenty of people, including important ones, don't always do it.
Tashi delek,

Open or closed eyes depends finally upon the style of "meditation".

In Dzogchen we "meditate" with half opened eyes and sometimes,

Straight forewards ( one elbow height)
Straight up,
left up
right up
the moving from the eyes to the corners.

But also with closed eyes are there visions seen, like in dreams.
According Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, there would not be difference between visions with closed eyes and open eyes.
Dream and Bardo of dying States are such (visions) states of Bardo

Closed eyes meditation is i guess so for other Meditation Traditions different.
With object meditation and without that outer object, here with closed eyes, there the outer object is clear seen due to memorization.
The rest which is here experienced are thoughts, which are "seen" and followed mostly.

The resolution here would be maybe meditation with outer objects and the gaze position of the eyes.



All in all "meditation" with opened eyes is the most practised one.

For Dzogchenpas without the intervention of consciousness and the related thoughts / objects
In other traditions (mostly), with the intervention of thoughts / objects etc.
The best meditation is no meditation
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by kalden yungdrung »

IN ADDITION:


There seems to be also the downward gaze, during Dzogchen practise........
I do not know this gaze because i never have used it, so i do not know therefore the result / fruit of this technic.
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by kalden yungdrung »

IN ADDITION:

Heard from a brother, that the downward gaze functions in relation to the Nirmanakaya posture.
The reason that i do not know this special posture the downward gaze, is that the sky medium is upwards.......
In the Nirmanakaya posture i look straight to the horizon and not downwards ..........

================================

- Dharmakaya posture eyes upward
- Sambhogakaya posture eyes to the side, left or right
- Nirmanakaya posture gaze is downward

But here the main thing is the appearance of the visions.

Further mentions Lopon La, that the gazes should not be kept too tight, one becomes uncomfortable and this disturbs the Dzogchen practise.
Like explained earlier with the tongue against the palate, that also would "disturb" the abiding in ones Natural State.

See also for the mentioned postures:
http://dzogchenexplorations.blogspot.co ... tures.html
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by DechenDave »

haha wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:58 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:06 am
Based on one non-buddhist lecture, blinking of eye is connected with Prana and movement of citta.
Based on Vajrayana teaching, eyes are linked with Thought channel.
Rigpa is recognizable without actively stopping the grosser levels of mental activity and of energy-wind as the method to recognize it. When recognized and accessed, however, the grosser levels automatically stop functioning.
dzogchen-in-comparison-with-other-buddhist-systems
Such references indicate the importance of working with eyes.
I was just listening to a Reggie Ray instruction he called the “12 Point Mahamudra Posture”. His instruction is to imagine or visualize the eyes pointed backward, as if looking directly into the central channel (I didn’t catch whether they are open or closed)
Anyone know if this a tradition somewhere, or if Trungpa R taught it, or his mod/innovation?
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by kalden yungdrung »

DechenDave wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:39 pm
haha wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:58 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:06 am
Based on one non-buddhist lecture, blinking of eye is connected with Prana and movement of citta.
Based on Vajrayana teaching, eyes are linked with Thought channel.
Rigpa is recognizable without actively stopping the grosser levels of mental activity and of energy-wind as the method to recognize it. When recognized and accessed, however, the grosser levels automatically stop functioning.
dzogchen-in-comparison-with-other-buddhist-systems
Such references indicate the importance of working with eyes.
I was just listening to a Reggie Ray instruction he called the “12 Point Mahamudra Posture”. His instruction is to imagine or visualize the eyes pointed backward, as if looking directly into the central channel (I didn’t catch whether they are open or closed)
Anyone know if this a tradition somewhere, or if Trungpa R taught it, or his mod/innovation?
Tashi delek,

What do you think, is that style of gazing called “12 Point Mahamudra Posture”, related to:

- the gazing of Thögal
- or is that way of visualisation based on Tantric principles ?
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by Lingpupa »

DechenDave wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:39 pm I was just listening to a Reggie Ray instruction he called the “12 Point Mahamudra Posture”. His instruction is to imagine or visualize the eyes pointed backward, as if looking directly into the central channel (I didn’t catch whether they are open or closed)
Anyone know if this a tradition somewhere, or if Trungpa R taught it, or his mod/innovation?
No, sorry, but you have good grounds for suspicion. I've seen a few Reggie Ray "explanations" that are, to put it gently, real outliers as far as traditional explanations are concerned.
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by Thomas Ossel »

I was just listening to a Reggie Ray instruction he called the “12 Point Mahamudra Posture”. His instruction is to imagine or visualize the eyes pointed backward, as if looking directly into the central channel (I didn’t catch whether they are open or closed)
Anyone know if this a tradition somewhere, or if Trungpa R taught it, or his mod/innovation?
This is from Mingyur Rinpoche: "It is said,“It is as though your eyes were looking through the back of your head instead of looking forwards.”"It is as though your eyes are looking backwards instead of forwards as they usually do. You are looking out with your eyes but are looking back at the same time. Do not try too hard with this though, otherwise you will really make a big mistake. You just sort of look back at your mind and say, “Who am I? Where am I ?What is this?"

Altough i don't know if it's allright to post here, since he is a Kagyu Nyingma. Altough in the full quote he mentiones not doing anything special or in particular, so i suppose he is not talking about tantric visualisation.
Last edited by Thomas Ossel on Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

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DechenDave wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:39 pmHis instruction is to imagine or visualize the eyes pointed backward, as if looking directly into the central channel (I didn’t catch whether they are open or closed).
That has to be the most badly phrased instruction I have heard in my life. Totally misses the point.

And this kiddies is EXACTLY why you do not take Dzogchen instructions from texts, but from living qualified teachers, live.

Unless, of course, you have received lung and tri for the texts and know exactly what is said in the text. No doubts. And then when doubts arise you go ask your living qualified teacher.
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by Thomas Ossel »

I was just listening to a Reggie Ray instruction he called the “12 Point Mahamudra Posture”. His instruction is to imagine or visualize the eyes pointed backward, as if looking directly into the central channel (I didn’t catch whether they are open or closed)
Anyone know if this a tradition somewhere, or if Trungpa R taught it, or his mod/innovation?

It is said,“It is as though your eyes were looking through the back of your head instead of looking forwards.”"It is as though your eyes are looking backwards instead of forwards as they usually do. You are looking out with your eyes but are looking back at the same time. Do not try too hard with this though, otherwise you will really make a big mistake. You just sort of look back at your mind and say, “Who am I? Where am I ?What is this? "
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Thomas Ossel wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:46 am
I was just listening to a Reggie Ray instruction he called the “12 Point Mahamudra Posture”. His instruction is to imagine or visualize the eyes pointed backward, as if looking directly into the central channel (I didn’t catch whether they are open or closed)
Anyone know if this a tradition somewhere, or if Trungpa R taught it, or his mod/innovation?

It is said,“It is as though your eyes were looking through the back of your head instead of looking forwards.”"It is as though your eyes are looking backwards instead of forwards as they usually do. You are looking out with your eyes but are looking back at the same time. Do not try too hard with this though, otherwise you will really make a big mistake. You just sort of look back at your mind and say, “Who am I? Where am I ?What is this? "
Tashi delek T,

Thanks for your reply here.

This , i never heard before , so it seems to be special.

- What is the mistake ?
- In which tradition is this practised ?
- Who is the "inventor" of this method?
- Why is this method practised ? ( Are there similar methods elsewhere ?)
- What is the fruit of this practise ?
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by DechenDave »

Thomas Ossel wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:46 am
I was just listening to a Reggie Ray instruction he called the “12 Point Mahamudra Posture”. His instruction is to imagine or visualize the eyes pointed backward, as if looking directly into the central channel (I didn’t catch whether they are open or closed)
Anyone know if this a tradition somewhere, or if Trungpa R taught it, or his mod/innovation?

It is said,“It is as though your eyes were looking through the back of your head instead of looking forwards.”"It is as though your eyes are looking backwards instead of forwards as they usually do. You are looking out with your eyes but are looking back at the same time. Do not try too hard with this though, otherwise you will really make a big mistake. You just sort of look back at your mind and say, “Who am I? Where am I ?What is this? "
Thanks Thomas
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by DechenDave »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:00 am
DechenDave wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:39 pmHis instruction is to imagine or visualize the eyes pointed backward, as if looking directly into the central channel (I didn’t catch whether they are open or closed).
That has to be the most badly phrased instruction I have heard in my life. Totally misses the point.

And this kiddies is EXACTLY why you do not take Dzogchen instructions from texts, but from living qualified teachers, live.

Unless, of course, you have received lung and tri for the texts and know exactly what is said in the text. No doubts. And then when doubts arise you go ask your living qualified teacher.


I have a guru, have received DI, lungs, instructions and have my own practice etc.
I don’t know if I am unusual in this, but from time to time I read or listen to publicly available materials from other teachers, in other traditions - some trad, some modern. I can generally discern gold from shit.
I just hadnt heard this particular instruction before and was curious as to its origins. He may have said “at” or “towards” the central channel (as in directionally) rather than “into”.
Sounds like Mingyur R has made a similar enough mention of it.
As to whether Reggie should be making his Mahamudra audio teachings publicly available and whether they should be listened to, I will leave up to the individual.
Last edited by DechenDave on Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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DechenDave
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by DechenDave »

Lingpupa wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:12 am
DechenDave wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:39 pm I was just listening to a Reggie Ray instruction he called the “12 Point Mahamudra Posture”. His instruction is to imagine or visualize the eyes pointed backward, as if looking directly into the central channel (I didn’t catch whether they are open or closed)
Anyone know if this a tradition somewhere, or if Trungpa R taught it, or his mod/innovation?
No, sorry, but you have good grounds for suspicion. I've seen a few Reggie Ray "explanations" that are, to put it gently, real outliers as far as traditional explanations are concerned.
I’m pretty unfamiliar with his stuff. I’ve skimmed a few things. Like many others from the Trungpa R/Shambhala scene he appears to me to have a propensity to put things in Trungpa’s somewhat descriptive vernacular. I like the vernacular but it seems like it might have been more helpful back when there were only Geunther and Evans-Wentz translations around. Now I find I sometimes have to use an extra layer of mental conversion back into more commonly accepted terms and categories.
His somatic and body-based stuff is unusual and possibly very helpful provided it is easily distinguished from more traditional material. I am not familiar enough with his stuff to say.
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