gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

open/closed
what a duality!
to be on the safe side, keep one eye open and one closed.
:rolling:

Open is better, but closing eyes for a moment can be done to help focus the mind.
and is also useful during visualization practice.
But, open is better, especially in shamatha.
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:08 am open/closed
what a duality!
to be on the safe side, keep one eye open and one closed.
:rolling:

Open is better, but closing eyes for a moment can be done to help focus the mind.
and is also useful during visualization practice.
But, open is better, especially in shamatha.
.
.
.
The question isn't about Shamatha though!
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
javier.espinoza.t
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

LolCat wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:53 pm I see, thank you. My confusion arose from something I read Malcolm say a long time back, about how you are supposed to be in the state of contemplation throughout the practice, but I suppose that is when you have enough stability to be capable of such a thing.
I was thinking of Rinpoche's Green Tara practice, just to be clear.
ChNN's Green Tara practice we use more in IDC was composed also for give example of a simple way to apply the essence of the practice of meditation and of the recitation of mantras according to the three series of outer tantras (Kriya Tantra, Charya or Ubhaya Tantra, and Yoga Tantra).

For more detail consult "The Precious Vase", Chapter 6 "The Practice of Meditation", number 3 "The way to practice the essence of the Outer Tantras".

If you have transmission of the Adzom Drukpa's Arya Tara Terma teaching, then i don't know if it belongs to Anuyoga system. I say this because in the Anuyoga way we don't need the entire saddhana to apply it's fundamental point (this is why ChNN transmissions of Anuyoga was almost only mantras), being this different from the outer tantras and Mahayoga. Note: (Inner Tantras are Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga -Dzogchen, in tibetan-)

If someone can confirm to which system the Adzom Drukpa's Arya Tara Terma teaching belongs I would be thankfull, so we all know that way of application is the same or not as the ChNN IDC Yoga of Arya Tara.
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heart
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by heart »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:14 am
LolCat wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:53 pm I see, thank you. My confusion arose from something I read Malcolm say a long time back, about how you are supposed to be in the state of contemplation throughout the practice, but I suppose that is when you have enough stability to be capable of such a thing.
I was thinking of Rinpoche's Green Tara practice, just to be clear.
ChNN's Green Tara practice we use more in IDC was composed also for give example of a simple way to apply the essence of the practice of meditation and of the recitation of mantras according to the three series of outer tantras (Kriya Tantra, Charya or Ubhaya Tantra, and Yoga Tantra).

For more detail consult "The Precious Vase", Chapter 6 "The Practice of Meditation", number 3 "The way to practice the essence of the Outer Tantras".

If you have transmission of the Adzom Drukpa's Arya Tara Terma teaching, then i don't know if it belongs to Anuyoga system. I say this because in the Anuyoga way we don't need the entire saddhana to apply it's fundamental point (this is why ChNN transmissions of Anuyoga was almost only mantras), being this different from the outer tantras and Mahayoga. Note: (Inner Tantras are Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga -Dzogchen, in tibetan-)

If someone can confirm to which system the Adzom Drukpa's Arya Tara Terma teaching belongs I would be thankfull, so we all know that way of application is the same or not as the ChNN IDC Yoga of Arya Tara.
It is anuyoga.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
javier.espinoza.t
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

heart wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:46 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:14 am
LolCat wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:53 pm I see, thank you. My confusion arose from something I read Malcolm say a long time back, about how you are supposed to be in the state of contemplation throughout the practice, but I suppose that is when you have enough stability to be capable of such a thing.
I was thinking of Rinpoche's Green Tara practice, just to be clear.
ChNN's Green Tara practice we use more in IDC was composed also for give example of a simple way to apply the essence of the practice of meditation and of the recitation of mantras according to the three series of outer tantras (Kriya Tantra, Charya or Ubhaya Tantra, and Yoga Tantra).

For more detail consult "The Precious Vase", Chapter 6 "The Practice of Meditation", number 3 "The way to practice the essence of the Outer Tantras".

If you have transmission of the Adzom Drukpa's Arya Tara Terma teaching, then i don't know if it belongs to Anuyoga system. I say this because in the Anuyoga way we don't need the entire saddhana to apply it's fundamental point (this is why ChNN transmissions of Anuyoga was almost only mantras), being this different from the outer tantras and Mahayoga. Note: (Inner Tantras are Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga -Dzogchen, in tibetan-)

If someone can confirm to which system the Adzom Drukpa's Arya Tara Terma teaching belongs I would be thankfull, so we all know that way of application is the same or not as the ChNN IDC Yoga of Arya Tara.
It is anuyoga.

/magnus
:thanks:
Oklahoma
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by Oklahoma »

In a book by sogyal Rinpoche on Dzogchen he says that for togyal one has to have the eyes open, so therefore for trekchod one practices that as well. It’s kind of like training for what you will need eventually.
My interpretation that I get from that is that with trekchod one could theoretically close the eyes since its nessecary to keep them open only for togyal.
My lama said that when one practices trekchod during the day one will carry over moments of abiding in awareness also while lying in bed waiting to fall asleep. So I always kind of assumed trekchod could work with eyes closed. Not that therefore I would just start doing Dzogchen with eyes closed full time from now on or anything, but...it’s a good question I’ve always had myself.
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by zenman »

Oklahoma wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:47 am In a book by sogyal Rinpoche on Dzogchen he says that for togyal one has to have the eyes open
According to one of my lamas, togal can be pacticed eyes closed as well.
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by heart »

zenman wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:16 am
Oklahoma wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:47 am In a book by sogyal Rinpoche on Dzogchen he says that for togyal one has to have the eyes open
According to one of my lamas, togal can be pacticed eyes closed as well.
:smile: And who is that lama?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
zenman
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by zenman »

heart wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:32 am
zenman wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:16 am
Oklahoma wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:47 am In a book by sogyal Rinpoche on Dzogchen he says that for togyal one has to have the eyes open
According to one of my lamas, togal can be pacticed eyes closed as well.
:smile: And who is that lama?

/magnus
Nyingma. Not going to speak more than that in the internet.
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heart
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by heart »

zenman wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:22 am
heart wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:32 am
zenman wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:16 am

According to one of my lamas, togal can be pacticed eyes closed as well.
:smile: And who is that lama?

/magnus
Nyingma. Not going to speak more than that in the internet.
It is an odd thing to say, just so you know.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
zenman
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by zenman »

heart wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:09 pm
zenman wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:22 am
heart wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:32 am

:smile: And who is that lama?

/magnus
Nyingma. Not going to speak more than that in the internet.
It is an odd thing to say, just so you know.

/magnus
It is, I know.
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by climb-up »

heart wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:09 pm
zenman wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:22 am
heart wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:32 am

:smile: And who is that lama?

/magnus
Nyingma. Not going to speak more than that in the internet.
It is an odd thing to say, just so you know.

/magnus
:rolling:
I was thinking the same thing. You’re willing to share part of what the Lama teaches online, but not their identity?
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by passel »

Not quite on topic but relevant- Thrangu says in one of his book that Mahamudra with eyes closed is fine. Can't remember which one, but I distinctly remember it because it was advice you don't often hear. For every practice rule there's an exception. It's enough to make you think that practice rules aren't rules at all, just helpful hints.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Yeah, it's in the Essentials of Mahamudra book.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by passel »

Ok, right.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by florin »

All the shapes that the eye can see reveal the essence of one’s state that is why it is important not to prevent the eye organ from helping to establish knowledge.Same goes for all the other senses.
zenman
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by zenman »

florin wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:37 pm All the shapes that the eye can see reveal the essence of one’s state that is why it is important not to prevent the eye organ from helping to establish knowledge.Same goes for all the other senses.
Precisely.
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mechashivaz
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by mechashivaz »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:06 am I've gotten a few different pronouncements on why one should have eyes open during contemplation, rather than closed. I notice though that some teachers and students, and well, sometimes even ChNN Rinpoche had his eyes closed at times.

I am wondering if there is any true rule, or if it just a "best practice", whether people have specific citations etc. Note, I do understand the importance of the gaze related to the channels etc...I just notice plenty of people, including important ones, don't always do it.
The long form of your answer is in the restricted book: The Four Chogshag, The Practice of Tregchod, by ChNN.

While he recommends doing the practice with eyes open he also acknowledges times where it is not necessary, he gives the example of some one laying down for rest, they need not open their eyes thinking this is the only way to be in contemplation.

If you've not read this text and are able to I highly recommend it. It's short and concise, only 20 pages of pith instruction and explanation.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed quote from restricted text
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:12 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:08 am
Open is better, but closing eyes for a moment can be done to help focus the mind.
and is also useful during visualization practice.
But, open is better, especially in shamatha.
The question isn't about Shamatha though!

What I meant was, when you begin a session, if you practice shamatha for a few minutes or whatever, practice with eyes open,
but then you can close them if needed to help focus on visualization.
It doesn't have to be all one way or the other.
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: gaze/open eyes/closed eyes

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:23 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:12 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:08 am
Open is better, but closing eyes for a moment can be done to help focus the mind.
and is also useful during visualization practice.
But, open is better, especially in shamatha.
The question isn't about Shamatha though!

What I meant was, when you begin a session, if you practice shamatha for a few minutes or whatever, practice with eyes open,
but then you can close them if needed to help focus on visualization.
It doesn't have to be all one way or the other.
.
.
.

Right, but the question is specifically about instructions for Dzogchen contemplation...not necessarily shamatha. That isn't to say it's irrelevant information, but there are lots of instruction for shamatha, and they may nor may not sync up with instructions on contemplation.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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