One should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.Thomas Amundsen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:54 pm
Loppon, I hope you don't mind me asking your personal opinion here. Do you, as a non-sectarian Dzogchen practitioner/translator/etc., consider the Guhyagarbha Tantra to be as important as the Nyingmapas do?
Intellectualism and Dzogchen
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:32 pmOne should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.Thomas Amundsen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:54 pm
Loppon, I hope you don't mind me asking your personal opinion here. Do you, as a non-sectarian Dzogchen practitioner/translator/etc., consider the Guhyagarbha Tantra to be as important as the Nyingmapas do?
Intellectualism and Dzogchen
This actually gets at a question I and I think many others have been having.
Reading posts like the mahayoga, atiyoga, anuyoga views on appearences and such.
What is a good book that goes over these topics so that people can have a good working knowledge of the terms and the correct ways to see these subjects and then get involved with a guru for the actual practice.
Thanks guys!
Reading posts like the mahayoga, atiyoga, anuyoga views on appearences and such.
What is a good book that goes over these topics so that people can have a good working knowledge of the terms and the correct ways to see these subjects and then get involved with a guru for the actual practice.
Thanks guys!
florin wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:25 pmIn dzogchen, in the beginning concepts are quite important. And this beginning in dzogchen can span over many years until we achieve total familiarity and stability.Mantrik wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:18 pm I gave away over 1,000 books in the last year, to charity shops, or other practitioners if they were 'restricted' in some way. I have retained a few hundred which are pithy, and some out of pure indulgence as pleasurable reading.
Almost everything of value in my life has been derived from experience, practice. A little theory helps, of course, but I cannot really say I value memorising lists of this or that, or reading rambling 'commentaries' of thousands of pages on short teachings of the bleedin' obvious.
I still love the histories and legends, and some study does help keep the mind alert, but I tried paths like Lam Rim and Tsongkhapa's Great Treatise and found that a few hours with ChNN was more valuable than many years of the former. Maybe Tsongkhapa really practised the 'essence' and wrote the rest to keep monks busy, but I doubt it, as some find huge pleasure in the intellectual debating. So do some here on DW
So, am I really missing out by refusing to engage with detailed analysis of Buddhism any longer?
How about you?
Here's a quote from ChNN which I hope is relevant:
“All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. In the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this, any intellectual way of seeing whatever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to seek or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism.
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and of all our conflicts. All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political or social conviction may condition us. We have to abandon such concepts as 'enlightenment', 'the nature of the mind', and so on, until we are no longer satisfied by a merely intellectual knowledge, and until we no longer neglect to integrate our knowledge with our actual existence.”
― Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, in 'Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State' .
Part of what we work with in GY is a concept isn't it?
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
The views of various yana's are discussed at length in Kunjed Gyalpo.CedarTree wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:38 pm This actually gets at a question I and I think many others have been having.
Reading posts like the mahayoga, atiyoga, anuyoga views on appearences and such.
What is a good book that goes over these topics so that people can have a good working knowledge of the terms and the correct ways to see these subjects and then get involved with a guru for the actual practice.
Thanks guys!
florin wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:25 pmIn dzogchen, in the beginning concepts are quite important. And this beginning in dzogchen can span over many years until we achieve total familiarity and stability.Mantrik wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:18 pm I gave away over 1,000 books in the last year, to charity shops, or other practitioners if they were 'restricted' in some way. I have retained a few hundred which are pithy, and some out of pure indulgence as pleasurable reading.
Almost everything of value in my life has been derived from experience, practice. A little theory helps, of course, but I cannot really say I value memorising lists of this or that, or reading rambling 'commentaries' of thousands of pages on short teachings of the bleedin' obvious.
I still love the histories and legends, and some study does help keep the mind alert, but I tried paths like Lam Rim and Tsongkhapa's Great Treatise and found that a few hours with ChNN was more valuable than many years of the former. Maybe Tsongkhapa really practised the 'essence' and wrote the rest to keep monks busy, but I doubt it, as some find huge pleasure in the intellectual debating. So do some here on DW
So, am I really missing out by refusing to engage with detailed analysis of Buddhism any longer?
How about you?
Here's a quote from ChNN which I hope is relevant:
“All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. In the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this, any intellectual way of seeing whatever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to seek or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism.
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and of all our conflicts. All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political or social conviction may condition us. We have to abandon such concepts as 'enlightenment', 'the nature of the mind', and so on, until we are no longer satisfied by a merely intellectual knowledge, and until we no longer neglect to integrate our knowledge with our actual existence.”
― Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, in 'Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State' .
Part of what we work with in GY is a concept isn't it?
But details you will find in Khenpo Zhenphen Öser's commentary on the root text of Kunjed Gyalpo
"Ornament of the State of Samantabhadra".
You can also try "Treasury of precious qualities.The rain of Joy " book two by Jigme Lingpa
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
Is this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:32 pmOne should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.Thomas Amundsen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:54 pm
Loppon, I hope you don't mind me asking your personal opinion here. Do you, as a non-sectarian Dzogchen practitioner/translator/etc., consider the Guhyagarbha Tantra to be as important as the Nyingmapas do?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
This is fine.Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 pmIs this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:32 pmOne should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.Thomas Amundsen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:54 pm
Loppon, I hope you don't mind me asking your personal opinion here. Do you, as a non-sectarian Dzogchen practitioner/translator/etc., consider the Guhyagarbha Tantra to be as important as the Nyingmapas do?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
I thought you weren't going to study any more books?Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 pmIs this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:32 pmOne should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.Thomas Amundsen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:54 pm
Loppon, I hope you don't mind me asking your personal opinion here. Do you, as a non-sectarian Dzogchen practitioner/translator/etc., consider the Guhyagarbha Tantra to be as important as the Nyingmapas do?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
Thanks.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:04 pmThis is fine.Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 pmIs this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
One of the really good aspects of DW is the ability to throw out ideas, sometimes as 'Devil's Advocate', and receive really useful information and guidance.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
lolTharpaChodron wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:10 pmI thought you weren't going to study any more books?Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 pmIs this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
I did say I retained a few which are pithy and direct, and wrote :
''I have not abandoned all books, just the long and turgid commentaries etc.''
I just have to hope this one is not eye-crossingly tedious and abstruse. Malcolm's own book is neither, so if he recommends a text I will read it.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
Is this just about the appearences quote or does it go over all the terms we always see used, the concepts and frameworks of this school/tradition, and all that kind of stuff?
florin wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:13 pmThe views of various yana's are discussed at length in Kunjed Gyalpo.CedarTree wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:38 pm This actually gets at a question I and I think many others have been having.
Reading posts like the mahayoga, atiyoga, anuyoga views on appearences and such.
What is a good book that goes over these topics so that people can have a good working knowledge of the terms and the correct ways to see these subjects and then get involved with a guru for the actual practice.
Thanks guys!
But details you will find in Khenpo Zhenphen Öser's commentary on the root text of Kunjed Gyalpo
"Ornament of the State of Samantabhadra".
You can also try "Treasury of precious qualities.The rain of Joy " book two by Jigme Lingpa
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
True, and you actually said you retained a few hundred books, no small feat.Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:19 pmlolTharpaChodron wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:10 pmI thought you weren't going to study any more books?Mantrik wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 pm
Is this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
I did say I retained a few which are pithy and direct, and wrote :
''I have not abandoned all books, just the long and turgid commentaries etc.''
I just have to hope this one is not eye-crossingly tedious and abstruse. Malcolm's own book is neither, so if he recommends a text I will read it.
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
I infer that means in order of preference,Zhentong<Gelug Prasanga<"Sakya" Prasanga?Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:53 pmNo, it is fine as well. Madhyamaka is all on the level of intellectual analysis. However, according to Longchenpa and Jigme Lingpa, Prasanga is the Madhyamaka vierw most compatible with Dzogchen in general, and ChNN cites Jigme Lingpa to that effect.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:45 amI see,and I think I had read somewhere that Zhentong Madhayamaka is nono for Dzogchen?
Also what constitute wrong view(s)?
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
As long as one understands that all phenomena are lack svabhāva, it does not matter much how you argue it.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:58 pmI infer that means in order of preference,Zhentong<Gelug Prasanga<"Sakya" Prasanga?Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:53 pmNo, it is fine as well. Madhyamaka is all on the level of intellectual analysis. However, according to Longchenpa and Jigme Lingpa, Prasanga is the Madhyamaka vierw most compatible with Dzogchen in general, and ChNN cites Jigme Lingpa to that effect.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:45 am
I see,and I think I had read somewhere that Zhentong Madhayamaka is nono for Dzogchen?
Also what constitute wrong view(s)?
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
Uh,there is no point to intensive sutra study?Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:22 pmAs long as one understands that all phenomena are lack svabhāva, it does not matter much how you argue it.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:58 pmI infer that means in order of preference,Zhentong<Gelug Prasanga<"Sakya" Prasanga?
Also what constitute wrong view(s)?
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
It really depends on your time and interest.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:59 pmUh,there is no point to intensive sutra study?Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:22 pmAs long as one understands that all phenomena are lack svabhāva, it does not matter much how you argue it.liuzg150181 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:58 pm
I infer that means in order of preference,Zhentong<Gelug Prasanga<"Sakya" Prasanga?
Also what constitute wrong view(s)?
- dzogchungpa
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:36 amTharpaChodron wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:14 am I'm just going to put this out there as a burning question that I have. Is there an all encompassing compendium of literature for a Nyingma practitioner? I know about those 2 books of volumes of Nyingma texts, but do they leave a lot out? I've got the important singular text
here and there, like WOMPT and Cascading Waterfalls, but as for original sutras in English, I'm woefully
empty handed.
You might want to check out The Complete Nyingma Tradition From Sutra to Tantra, which was one of Lama Tharchin's projects that is now coming to fruition.
BTW, a new volume came out last week: https://www.shambhala.com/authors/a-f/c ... ok-14.html
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen
I had no idea this was a project of Lama Tharchin's. As a Pema Osel Ling person, that is really quite cool to hear.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:06 pmdzogchungpa wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:36 amTharpaChodron wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:14 am I'm just going to put this out there as a burning question that I have. Is there an all encompassing compendium of literature for a Nyingma practitioner? I know about those 2 books of volumes of Nyingma texts, but do they leave a lot out? I've got the important singular text
here and there, like WOMPT and Cascading Waterfalls, but as for original sutras in English, I'm woefully
empty handed.
You might want to check out The Complete Nyingma Tradition From Sutra to Tantra, which was one of Lama Tharchin's projects that is now coming to fruition.
BTW, a new volume came out last week: https://www.shambhala.com/authors/a-f/c ... ok-14.html