Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Malcolm
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Thomas Amundsen wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:54 pm
Loppon, I hope you don't mind me asking your personal opinion here. Do you, as a non-sectarian Dzogchen practitioner/translator/etc., consider the Guhyagarbha Tantra to be as important as the Nyingmapas do?
One should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.
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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:32 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:54 pm
Loppon, I hope you don't mind me asking your personal opinion here. Do you, as a non-sectarian Dzogchen practitioner/translator/etc., consider the Guhyagarbha Tantra to be as important as the Nyingmapas do?
One should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.
:twothumbsup:
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CedarTree
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Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by CedarTree »

This actually gets at a question I and I think many others have been having.

Reading posts like the mahayoga, atiyoga, anuyoga views on appearences and such.

What is a good book that goes over these topics so that people can have a good working knowledge of the terms and the correct ways to see these subjects and then get involved with a guru for the actual practice.

Thanks guys!

florin wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:25 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:18 pm I gave away over 1,000 books in the last year, to charity shops, or other practitioners if they were 'restricted' in some way. I have retained a few hundred which are pithy, and some out of pure indulgence as pleasurable reading.

Almost everything of value in my life has been derived from experience, practice. A little theory helps, of course, but I cannot really say I value memorising lists of this or that, or reading rambling 'commentaries' of thousands of pages on short teachings of the bleedin' obvious.

I still love the histories and legends, and some study does help keep the mind alert, but I tried paths like Lam Rim and Tsongkhapa's Great Treatise and found that a few hours with ChNN was more valuable than many years of the former. Maybe Tsongkhapa really practised the 'essence' and wrote the rest to keep monks busy, but I doubt it, as some find huge pleasure in the intellectual debating. So do some here on DW ;)

So, am I really missing out by refusing to engage with detailed analysis of Buddhism any longer?

How about you?

Here's a quote from ChNN which I hope is relevant:

“All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. In the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this, any intellectual way of seeing whatever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to seek or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism.

Dualism is the real root of our suffering and of all our conflicts. All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political or social conviction may condition us. We have to abandon such concepts as 'enlightenment', 'the nature of the mind', and so on, until we are no longer satisfied by a merely intellectual knowledge, and until we no longer neglect to integrate our knowledge with our actual existence.”


― Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, in 'Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State' .
In dzogchen, in the beginning concepts are quite important. And this beginning in dzogchen can span over many years until we achieve total familiarity and stability.
Part of what we work with in GY is a concept isn't it?

Practice, Practice, Practice
florin
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by florin »

CedarTree wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:38 pm This actually gets at a question I and I think many others have been having.

Reading posts like the mahayoga, atiyoga, anuyoga views on appearences and such.

What is a good book that goes over these topics so that people can have a good working knowledge of the terms and the correct ways to see these subjects and then get involved with a guru for the actual practice.

Thanks guys!

florin wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:25 pm
Mantrik wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:18 pm I gave away over 1,000 books in the last year, to charity shops, or other practitioners if they were 'restricted' in some way. I have retained a few hundred which are pithy, and some out of pure indulgence as pleasurable reading.

Almost everything of value in my life has been derived from experience, practice. A little theory helps, of course, but I cannot really say I value memorising lists of this or that, or reading rambling 'commentaries' of thousands of pages on short teachings of the bleedin' obvious.

I still love the histories and legends, and some study does help keep the mind alert, but I tried paths like Lam Rim and Tsongkhapa's Great Treatise and found that a few hours with ChNN was more valuable than many years of the former. Maybe Tsongkhapa really practised the 'essence' and wrote the rest to keep monks busy, but I doubt it, as some find huge pleasure in the intellectual debating. So do some here on DW ;)

So, am I really missing out by refusing to engage with detailed analysis of Buddhism any longer?

How about you?

Here's a quote from ChNN which I hope is relevant:

“All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. In the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this, any intellectual way of seeing whatever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to seek or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism.

Dualism is the real root of our suffering and of all our conflicts. All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political or social conviction may condition us. We have to abandon such concepts as 'enlightenment', 'the nature of the mind', and so on, until we are no longer satisfied by a merely intellectual knowledge, and until we no longer neglect to integrate our knowledge with our actual existence.”


― Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, in 'Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State' .
In dzogchen, in the beginning concepts are quite important. And this beginning in dzogchen can span over many years until we achieve total familiarity and stability.
Part of what we work with in GY is a concept isn't it?
The views of various yana's are discussed at length in Kunjed Gyalpo.
But details you will find in Khenpo Zhenphen Öser's commentary on the root text of Kunjed Gyalpo
"Ornament of the State of Samantabhadra".
You can also try "Treasury of precious qualities.The rain of Joy " book two by Jigme Lingpa
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Mantrik
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by Mantrik »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:32 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:54 pm
Loppon, I hope you don't mind me asking your personal opinion here. Do you, as a non-sectarian Dzogchen practitioner/translator/etc., consider the Guhyagarbha Tantra to be as important as the Nyingmapas do?
One should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.
Is this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Malcolm
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Mantrik wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:32 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:54 pm
Loppon, I hope you don't mind me asking your personal opinion here. Do you, as a non-sectarian Dzogchen practitioner/translator/etc., consider the Guhyagarbha Tantra to be as important as the Nyingmapas do?
One should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.
Is this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
This is fine.
KristenM
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by KristenM »

Mantrik wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:32 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:54 pm
Loppon, I hope you don't mind me asking your personal opinion here. Do you, as a non-sectarian Dzogchen practitioner/translator/etc., consider the Guhyagarbha Tantra to be as important as the Nyingmapas do?
One should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.
Is this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
I thought you weren't going to study any more books? :)
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by dzogchungpa »

TharpaChodron wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:10 pmI thought you weren't going to study any more books? :)


There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Mantrik
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by Mantrik »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:04 pm
Mantrik wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:32 pm

One should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.
Is this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
This is fine.
Thanks. :)
One of the really good aspects of DW is the ability to throw out ideas, sometimes as 'Devil's Advocate', and receive really useful information and guidance.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by Mantrik »

TharpaChodron wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:10 pm
Mantrik wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:32 pm

One should have a reasonably good understanding of Guhyagarbha, especially chapter 13.
Is this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
I thought you weren't going to study any more books? :)
lol :)
I did say I retained a few which are pithy and direct, and wrote :
''I have not abandoned all books, just the long and turgid commentaries etc.''

I just have to hope this one is not eye-crossingly tedious and abstruse. Malcolm's own book is neither, so if he recommends a text I will read it. :)
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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CedarTree
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by CedarTree »

Is this just about the appearences quote or does it go over all the terms we always see used, the concepts and frameworks of this school/tradition, and all that kind of stuff?



florin wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:13 pm
CedarTree wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:38 pm This actually gets at a question I and I think many others have been having.

Reading posts like the mahayoga, atiyoga, anuyoga views on appearences and such.

What is a good book that goes over these topics so that people can have a good working knowledge of the terms and the correct ways to see these subjects and then get involved with a guru for the actual practice.

Thanks guys!

florin wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:25 pm

In dzogchen, in the beginning concepts are quite important. And this beginning in dzogchen can span over many years until we achieve total familiarity and stability.
Part of what we work with in GY is a concept isn't it?
The views of various yana's are discussed at length in Kunjed Gyalpo.
But details you will find in Khenpo Zhenphen Öser's commentary on the root text of Kunjed Gyalpo
"Ornament of the State of Samantabhadra".
You can also try "Treasury of precious qualities.The rain of Joy " book two by Jigme Lingpa

Practice, Practice, Practice
KristenM
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by KristenM »

Mantrik wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:19 pm
TharpaChodron wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:10 pm
Mantrik wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 pm

Is this worth obtaining or is there a better analysis? :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/155 ... UTF8&psc=1
I thought you weren't going to study any more books? :)
lol :)
I did say I retained a few which are pithy and direct, and wrote :
''I have not abandoned all books, just the long and turgid commentaries etc.''

I just have to hope this one is not eye-crossingly tedious and abstruse. Malcolm's own book is neither, so if he recommends a text I will read it. :)
True, and you actually said you retained a few hundred books, no small feat. :P
liuzg150181
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by liuzg150181 »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:53 pm
liuzg150181 wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:45 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:06 am

It’s just fine. Debating with Gelugpas is just sport, there is nothing wrong Tsongkhapa’s Madhyamaka, though some of his explanations suffer from prolixity.
I see,and I think I had read somewhere that Zhentong Madhayamaka is nono for Dzogchen?
No, it is fine as well. Madhyamaka is all on the level of intellectual analysis. However, according to Longchenpa and Jigme Lingpa, Prasanga is the Madhyamaka vierw most compatible with Dzogchen in general, and ChNN cites Jigme Lingpa to that effect.
I infer that means in order of preference,Zhentong<Gelug Prasanga<"Sakya" Prasanga?
Also what constitute wrong view(s)?
Malcolm
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

liuzg150181 wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:58 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:53 pm
liuzg150181 wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:45 am
I see,and I think I had read somewhere that Zhentong Madhayamaka is nono for Dzogchen?
No, it is fine as well. Madhyamaka is all on the level of intellectual analysis. However, according to Longchenpa and Jigme Lingpa, Prasanga is the Madhyamaka vierw most compatible with Dzogchen in general, and ChNN cites Jigme Lingpa to that effect.
I infer that means in order of preference,Zhentong<Gelug Prasanga<"Sakya" Prasanga?
Also what constitute wrong view(s)?
As long as one understands that all phenomena are lack svabhāva, it does not matter much how you argue it.
liuzg150181
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by liuzg150181 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:22 pm
liuzg150181 wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:58 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:53 pm

No, it is fine as well. Madhyamaka is all on the level of intellectual analysis. However, according to Longchenpa and Jigme Lingpa, Prasanga is the Madhyamaka vierw most compatible with Dzogchen in general, and ChNN cites Jigme Lingpa to that effect.
I infer that means in order of preference,Zhentong<Gelug Prasanga<"Sakya" Prasanga?
Also what constitute wrong view(s)?
As long as one understands that all phenomena are lack svabhāva, it does not matter much how you argue it.
Uh,there is no point to intensive sutra study?
Malcolm
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

liuzg150181 wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:59 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:22 pm
liuzg150181 wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:58 pm
I infer that means in order of preference,Zhentong<Gelug Prasanga<"Sakya" Prasanga?
Also what constitute wrong view(s)?
As long as one understands that all phenomena are lack svabhāva, it does not matter much how you argue it.
Uh,there is no point to intensive sutra study?
It really depends on your time and interest.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by dzogchungpa »

dzogchungpa wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:36 am
TharpaChodron wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:14 am I'm just going to put this out there as a burning question that I have. Is there an all encompassing compendium of literature for a Nyingma practitioner? I know about those 2 books of volumes of Nyingma texts, but do they leave a lot out? I've got the important singular text
here and there, like WOMPT and Cascading Waterfalls, but as for original sutras in English, I'm woefully
empty handed. :|

You might want to check out The Complete Nyingma Tradition From Sutra to Tantra, which was one of Lama Tharchin's projects that is now coming to fruition.

BTW, a new volume came out last week: https://www.shambhala.com/authors/a-f/c ... ok-14.html
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
KristenM
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Re: Intellectualism and Dzogchen

Post by KristenM »

dzogchungpa wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:06 pm
dzogchungpa wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:36 am
TharpaChodron wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:14 am I'm just going to put this out there as a burning question that I have. Is there an all encompassing compendium of literature for a Nyingma practitioner? I know about those 2 books of volumes of Nyingma texts, but do they leave a lot out? I've got the important singular text
here and there, like WOMPT and Cascading Waterfalls, but as for original sutras in English, I'm woefully
empty handed. :|

You might want to check out The Complete Nyingma Tradition From Sutra to Tantra, which was one of Lama Tharchin's projects that is now coming to fruition.

BTW, a new volume came out last week: https://www.shambhala.com/authors/a-f/c ... ok-14.html
I had no idea this was a project of Lama Tharchin's. As a Pema Osel Ling person, that is really quite cool to hear.
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