"highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

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Grigoris
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote:What an extremely strange thing to say. You think only realized people can practice Dzogchen teachings? If this were true, it would defeat the whole purpose of Dzogchen teachings. But it is definitely a common opinion among those who really have no understanding of Dzogchen, both Tibetans and Westerners.
Sigh... Have you even been following our conversation? The ... meant that I have yet to see ordinary person who practice the Great Perfection eradicating the coarse aspect of the two obscurations even while they have not realized the direct realization of emptiness. Regardless of what is said in the text you quoted.

Actually, quite clearly: the two obscurations abide, dude.

Maybe I am just not looking hard enough, or in the right spot?
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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heart
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:People who doubt my assertion need to read the works of Khenpo Ngachung.
In order for people to embrace your assertion, they need to see examples of this in Dzogchen students.

Proof of the pudding... and all that.
The proof of the pudding is the source of the assertion, Khenpo Ngachung.
Who recognised the natural state while doing Ngondro?

/magnus
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

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What is meant by "the coarse aspect of the two obscurations"?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

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heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:In order for people to embrace your assertion, they need to see examples of this in Dzogchen students.

Proof of the pudding... and all that.
The proof of the pudding is the source of the assertion, Khenpo Ngachung.
Who recognised the natural state while doing Ngondro?

/magnus
Some great masters dedicated their entire lives to ngondro practices.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:In order for people to embrace your assertion, they need to see examples of this in Dzogchen students.

Proof of the pudding... and all that.
The proof of the pudding is the source of the assertion, Khenpo Ngachung.
Who recognised the natural state while doing Ngondro?

/magnus
And this demonstrates what? Do you think it was Ngondro practice that was responsible for his recognition? I am sure that is not what you mean.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by dzogchungpa »

Grigoris wrote:Some great masters dedicated their entire lives to ngondro practices.
I don't know how accurate this is, but in "The Wish-Fulfilling Jewel", Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche says that the Guru Yoga from the Longchen Nyingthig ngondro described in that book was Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's main practice.
Last edited by dzogchungpa on Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:What is meant by "the coarse aspect of the two obscurations"?
Pretty simple, it means that the two obscurations have a coarse aspect and a subtle aspect.

Eliminating the course aspect of the afflictive obscuration means that one will not take rebirth in any of the three lower realms, nor outside of Dharma families and so on.

The subtle aspect of the afflictive obscuration means that one will still be subject to afflictions, but markedly less so than other ordinary people.

Eliminating the coarse aspect of the knowledge obscuration means that one will begin to manifest the six clairvoyances, find it very easy to understand difficult Dharma topics and so forth.

The subtle aspect of the knowledge obscuration means that one will still be subject to innate self-grasping, will lack the two omnisciences and so on.

What Khenpo Ngachung is stating is that these coarse obscurations cannot be eliminated by those who have not acheived the path of seeing of the lesser vehicles.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Some great masters dedicated their entire lives to ngondro practices.
I don't know how accurate this is but, in "The Wish-Fulfilling Jewel", Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche says that the Guru Yoga from the Longchen Nyingthig ngondro described in that book was Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's main practice.
Sure, and the Sakyas claim his main practice was the Amoghasiddhi Guru Yoga from Sakya Lamdre.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote:I have yet to see ordinary person who practice the Great Perfection eradicating the coarse aspect of the two obscurations even while they have not realized the direct realization of emptiness.
Since when have you been able to read minds? You should know you cannot judge realization based on outer behavior.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by florin »

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Even if it is an indirect approach to Dzogchen, it still is an approach. Reading the Rongzom book right now.

/magnus

Yes, but let us be very clear what we are doing and how such approaches deviate from the approach the Great Perfection itself.
Not necessarily a deviation, if you know what you are doing.

/magnus
Sattvayoga Mahayoga Anuyoga are clearly deviations from the real condition beyond effort.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

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Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:I have yet to see ordinary person who practice the Great Perfection eradicating the coarse aspect of the two obscurations even while they have not realized the direct realization of emptiness.
Since when have you been able to read minds? You should know you cannot judge realization based on outer behavior.
Aye, and there's the rub. As a non-psychic, how am I to determine that those of my friends who recommend dispensing with "outer practices," ritual, or so-called "lower paths" are really on the right path? And who among them are deceiving themselves, and possibly others?

The answer is: is doesn't matter, of course. All that matters is my own personal path, my own capacities and abilities, my own recognition, or non-recognition, of my nature, and how I integrate that recognition, or create circumstances to cause it to "arise."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:I have yet to see ordinary person who practice the Great Perfection eradicating the coarse aspect of the two obscurations even while they have not realized the direct realization of emptiness.
Since when have you been able to read minds? You should know you cannot judge realization based on outer behavior.
Aye, and there's the rub. As a non-psychic, how am I to determine that those of my friends who recommend dispensing with "outer practices," ritual, or so-called "lower paths" are really on the right path? And who among them are deceiving themselves, and possibly others?

The answer is: is doesn't matter, of course. All that matters is my own personal path, my own capacities and abilities, my own recognition, or non-recognition, of my nature, and how I integrate that recognition, or create circumstances to cause it to "arise."
Yes, and what I am saying is that people who are practicing the methods prescribed in the Dzogchen teachings— which does not include the two stages, deity yoga and so on — should be confident in those practices without thinking they are missing something because, for example, they never bothered to finish (much less start) Ngondro, have not done a retreat on the three roots and so on.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by conebeckham »

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Since when have you been able to read minds? You should know you cannot judge realization based on outer behavior.
Aye, and there's the rub. As a non-psychic, how am I to determine that those of my friends who recommend dispensing with "outer practices," ritual, or so-called "lower paths" are really on the right path? And who among them are deceiving themselves, and possibly others?

The answer is: is doesn't matter, of course. All that matters is my own personal path, my own capacities and abilities, my own recognition, or non-recognition, of my nature, and how I integrate that recognition, or create circumstances to cause it to "arise."
Yes, and what I am saying is that people who are practicing the methods prescribed in the Dzogchen teachings— which does not include the two stages, deity yoga and so on — should be confident in those practices without thinking they are missing something because, for example, they never bothered to finish (much less start) Ngondro, have not done a retreat on the three roots and so on.
No disagreement here. This is one of those "follow teacher's advice" moments if there ever was one. For instance, it's equally appropriate to point out that, for those who are practicing with the two stages, etc., they need not feel they are missing out because, for example, they are wasting their time with conceptual claptrap and bells and whistles (kanglings, maybe?) or what-have-you, when they could leave all that behind and "just rest."

It goes both ways, and very much depends on the student's relation with the teacher, and ultimately, with the student's relation with his own rigpa, to use a Dzogchen term.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Since when have you been able to read minds? You should know you cannot judge realization based on outer behavior.
Aye, and there's the rub. As a non-psychic, how am I to determine that those of my friends who recommend dispensing with "outer practices," ritual, or so-called "lower paths" are really on the right path? And who among them are deceiving themselves, and possibly others?

The answer is: is doesn't matter, of course. All that matters is my own personal path, my own capacities and abilities, my own recognition, or non-recognition, of my nature, and how I integrate that recognition, or create circumstances to cause it to "arise."
Yes, and what I am saying is that people who are practicing the methods prescribed in the Dzogchen teachings— which does not include the two stages, deity yoga and so on — should be confident in those practices without thinking they are missing something because, for example, they never bothered to finish (much less start) Ngondro, have not done a retreat on the three roots and so on.
Don't know if this helps, but my main issue in the OP was definitely not that i've felt I was missing something by not doing a certain practice. If anything, I tend towards extreme laziness and a desire for simplicity. I'm -super- unattracted to stuff like Kriyayoga just on my personality alone, not much of a "just so" person, and I really don't like fussy practices. I am 100% uninterested in doing 'typical' Ngondro too.

What I was griping about is being passaive-agressively poo-pooed by someone for sometimes using "lower practices" when necessary...I wish everything would spontaneously self liberate and I had no need to do "lower practices", but that simply hasn't been my experience, and there are times where I quite specifically clearly need a relative practice. I have -no- desire to set them up as credentials or fetishize them, but it seems pretty clear that most Dzogchen teachers realize that their students will at time have to make use of these practices.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by florin »

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Since when have you been able to read minds? You should know you cannot judge realization based on outer behavior.
Aye, and there's the rub. As a non-psychic, how am I to determine that those of my friends who recommend dispensing with "outer practices," ritual, or so-called "lower paths" are really on the right path? And who among them are deceiving themselves, and possibly others?

The answer is: is doesn't matter, of course. All that matters is my own personal path, my own capacities and abilities, my own recognition, or non-recognition, of my nature, and how I integrate that recognition, or create circumstances to cause it to "arise."
Yes, and what I am saying is that people who are practicing the methods prescribed in the Dzogchen teachings— which does not include the two stages, deity yoga and so on — should be confident in those practices without thinking they are missing something because, for example, they never bothered to finish (much less start) Ngondro, have not done a retreat on the three roots and so on.
Unfortunately there is so much brainwashing around that those few who understand dzogchen on its own terms should consider themselves truly blessed.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

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Malcolm wrote:Since when have you been able to read minds?
A long time now, it is part of the trade I plunder. Ayway, you don't have to be a clairvoyant to know what people are thinking. Your mother always knew when you were about to get up to shit and she was didn't work at carnival side shows as a medium and soothsayer.
You should know you cannot judge realization based on outer behavior.
I think that in many instances you can. What is manifested through speech and bodily action if not the mind?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

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Malcolm wrote:... they never bothered to finish (much less start) Ngondro...
So now, according to you, the various Dzogchen lineage ngondro are of no value? So Dudlom Lingpa did not know what he was doing or talking about when he taught/outlined the Dudjom Tersar nogndro?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

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Johnny Dangerous wrote:What I was griping about is being passaive-agressively poo-pooed by someone for sometimes using "lower practices" when necessary...
I feel that the "you shouldn't do this" fundamentalism that is displayed by some around here is as boring and off-putting as the "you have to do this" fundamentalism of others.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Sherab Rigdrol »

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:... they never bothered to finish (much less start) Ngondro...
So now, according to you, the various Dzogchen lineage ngondro are of no value? So Dudlom Lingpa did not know what he was doing or talking about when he taught/outlined the Dudjom Tersar nogndro?
He never said that. He said people practicing Dzogchen should have confidence that their practice will yield results without the echoing of "you need to do ngondro, then 3 roots, then completion etc." bringing doubt.
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Re: "highest practices" and anti-intellectualism

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Since when have you been able to read minds?
A long time now, it is part of the trade I plunder. Ayway, you don't have to be a clairvoyant to know what people are thinking. Your mother always knew when you were about to get up to shit and she was didn't work at carnival side shows as a medium and soothsayer.
You definitely have to be clairvoyant if you are trying judge others you know solely through the internet.

You should know you cannot judge realization based on outer behavior.
I think that in many instances you can. What is manifested through speech and bodily action if not the mind?
Reams of Mahāyāna sūtras, not to mention tantras, contradict this notion. Śakyamuni Buddha in a past incarnation was a very strict monk who was critical of another monk whose students hung out in bars with townsfolk, ate meat and so on. The karmic effect of this was that Buddha's Sangha has been fragmented by sectarianism.
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