Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Crazywisdom
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Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by Crazywisdom »

The following interview should settle many debates about Dzogchen.

http://levekunst.com/mixing-fire-and-wa ... -rinpoche/
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by dzogchungpa »

:popcorn:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by dzogchungpa »

I like this bit:
Experience is said to be the adornment of naked knowing, present within all beings. Whoever has mind has this knowing since it is the mind’s essence. The relationship between thinking mind and knowing is this: the thinking mind is like the shadow of one’s hand while knowing is the hand itself.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by bfaus »

Thank you CrazyWisdom.
dzogchungpa wrote:I like this bit:
Experience is said to be the adornment of naked knowing, present within all beings. Whoever has mind has this knowing since it is the mind’s essence. The relationship between thinking mind and knowing is this: the thinking mind is like the shadow of one’s hand while knowing is the hand itself.
:good:

This made an impact:
Tilopa told Naropa, “Theory is like a patch. It will wear and fall off.” After dying, we undergo various pleasant and unpleasant experiences, intense panic, fear and terror. Intellectual understanding does not destroy those fears; it cannot make confusion subside. So, merely to generalize: my essence is devoid of confusion, is useless. It’s only a thought, another concept, which is ineffective at the moment of death,when it comes to deal with confusion.
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by dzogchungpa »

Crazywisdom wrote:The following interview should settle many debates about Dzogchen.

http://levekunst.com/mixing-fire-and-wa ... -rinpoche/
I enjoyed the interview, but what debates does it settle?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by Crazywisdom »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:The following interview should settle many debates about Dzogchen.

http://levekunst.com/mixing-fire-and-wa ... -rinpoche/
I enjoyed the interview, but what debates does it settle?
The way to practice the path...
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by Simon E. »

'The'?
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by Crazywisdom »

Simon E. wrote:'The'?
Up to you to decide
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by Simon E. »

In which case surely its 'One of' :smile:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

It is also taught that there is no difference whatsoever between Essence Mahamudra and Dzogchen in meaning, only in terminology.
I was glad to read this, always nice to confirm my own biases lol. I'll bet it rubs some the wrong way though :stirthepot:
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by conebeckham »

Generally, everything up to the Great Seal is termed "mind path."
Common Great Perfection is also included in this.
The class of exceptional esoteric instructions
is said to be the "awareness path," and as such
it is not definite that one must begin with calm abiding.
When the nature of naked awareness itself without exaggeration or denial is revealed,
it is sufficient just to become accustomed to that.
However, if the true nature is not unerringly revealed,
then even the profound esoteric Instructions will be difficult to assimilate.
In that case, it is better to tread the gradual path.

"Non-Meditation," "Non-distraction," "abandoning mental doings,"
"Maintaining whatever arises," "ordinary mind,"
and "free of intellect" all mean uncontrived.
Whatever abiding or moving is perceived, it is unnecessary to fabricate anything.
Again minding and again concentrating is certainly adding deluded thought onto oneself.
Focusing directly upon bare awareness,
called "Maintaining whatever arises," is the path of all the adepts.

In the ways of applying practice to one's being, such as the Middle Way, Pacification and Severence,
The Great Seal, and common Great Perfection,
Whatever thoughts arise, without making anything out of them,
you look nakedly right at them and they become the path of liberation.
In the path of the Heart-Drop esoteric instructions of Great Perfection,
you look inwardly right at the one who perceives whatever thoughts arise,
and you encounter the essence of reality.
Kongtrul, Creation and Completion, Sarah Harding, trans', pp. 49-50.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by dzogchungpa »

Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on the above:
The major distinction between all of these traditions lies between common and uncommon dzogchen. Dzogchen includes three classes of instruction. These are called the mind, space, and instruction classes. Uncommon dzogchen refers to the instruction class, which is considered by that tradition to be the highest level of instruction. Within that there is the essence of the instruction class, called the heart-drop or nying tig teachings. The distinction made in this text between the nying thig approach and that of these other meditative traditions is very subtle, and concerns what you do when a thought arises. In most traditions of meditation, as I have explained, when a thought arises, you look directly at that thought and thereby directly experience its empty nature. However, in the nying thig tradition, when a thought arises, rather than looking directly at the nature of the thought, you look directly at the nature of that which recognizes the thought's arising. This is obviously a very subtle distinction, but the idea is that by looking directly at the nature of that, or who, or what, recognizes the thought's arising, you directly encounter dharmata, the nature of all things. In the former instance, there is a slight sense of your awareness being directed outward at thought; and in the latter, there is a slight sense of its being directed inward back at itself. At this point you are relating to this distinction as theoretical understanding. It's not difficult to understand intellectually the difference between these two ways of looking, but the important thing, since this is meditation instruction, is to actually practice this. Whether you are looking at what arises or looking at that which recognizes what arises, in order to understand what the two approaches mean, you need to actually have attempted them. You need to attempt them again and again until you actually experience them, because the difference between them is profound.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

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This passage resonates with me:
the great danger is when you just leave naked knowing as an intellectual understanding, that “In Dzogchen there is no thing to meditate upon. There is no thing to view. There is nothing to carry out as an action.” That becomes a nihilistic concept and is completely detrimental to progress, because the final point of the teaching is conceptlessness, being beyond intellectual thinking. Yet, what has happened is that you have created an intellectual idea of Dzogchen and hold on to that idea very tightly. This is a major mistake but it can happen. So, it is very important to bring the instruction into personal experience through the oral guidance of a teacher. Otherwise, simply to have the idea: I am meditating on Dzogchen, is to completely miss the point.
So - 'don't try this at home'.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by krodha »

Wayfarer wrote:This passage resonates with me:
the great danger is when you just leave naked knowing as an intellectual understanding, that “In Dzogchen there is no thing to meditate upon. There is no thing to view. There is nothing to carry out as an action.” That becomes a nihilistic concept and is completely detrimental to progress, because the final point of the teaching is conceptlessness, being beyond intellectual thinking. Yet, what has happened is that you have created an intellectual idea of Dzogchen and hold on to that idea very tightly. This is a major mistake but it can happen. So, it is very important to bring the instruction into personal experience through the oral guidance of a teacher. Otherwise, simply to have the idea: I am meditating on Dzogchen, is to completely miss the point.
The definition of Jaxchen.
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by Wayfarer »

That's an interesting word, would you care to elaborate?
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by krodha »

Wayfarer wrote:That's an interesting word, would you care to elaborate?
Some so-called "teachers" out there like Jax teach their students to relate to Dzogchen in the very manner that is being criticized by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.

Some people jokingly refer to his teachings as "Jaxchen" because he surely isn't teaching Dzogchen.
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

dzogchungpa wrote:Thrangu Rinpoche's commentary on the above:
The major distinction between all of these traditions lies between common and uncommon dzogchen. Dzogchen includes three classes of instruction. These are called the mind, space, and instruction classes. Uncommon dzogchen refers to the instruction class, which is considered by that tradition to be the highest level of instruction. Within that there is the essence of the instruction class, called the heart-drop or nying tig teachings. The distinction made in this text between the nying thig approach and that of these other meditative traditions is very subtle, and concerns what you do when a thought arises. In most traditions of meditation, as I have explained, when a thought arises, you look directly at that thought and thereby directly experience its empty nature. However, in the nying thig tradition, when a thought arises, rather than looking directly at the nature of the thought, you look directly at the nature of that which recognizes the thought's arising. This is obviously a very subtle distinction, but the idea is that by looking directly at the nature of that, or who, or what, recognizes the thought's arising, you directly encounter dharmata, the nature of all things. In the former instance, there is a slight sense of your awareness being directed outward at thought; and in the latter, there is a slight sense of its being directed inward back at itself. At this point you are relating to this distinction as theoretical understanding. It's not difficult to understand intellectually the difference between these two ways of looking, but the important thing, since this is meditation instruction, is to actually practice this. Whether you are looking at what arises or looking at that which recognizes what arises, in order to understand what the two approaches mean, you need to actually have attempted them. You need to attempt them again and again until you actually experience them, because the difference between them is profound.
Interesting, but this instruction to "recognize the recognizer" is found in a bunch of places, including (I think) what here would be termed "common" paths...
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by krodha »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Interesting, but this instruction to "recognize the recognizer" is found in a bunch of places, including (I think) what here would be termed "common" paths...
Although ultimately "recognizing the recognizer" is a provisional step and not the main point. Leaving it there would render the exercise incomplete.

The purpose of placing the attention on "that which recognizes" is to gain insight into the nature of that noetic capacity.
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by dzogchungpa »

krodha wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Interesting, but this instruction to "recognize the recognizer" is found in a bunch of places, including (I think) what here would be termed "common" paths...
Although ultimately "recognizing the recognizer" is a provisional step and not the main point. Leaving it there would render the exercise incomplete.

The purpose of placing the attention on "that which recognizes" is to gain insight into the nature of that noetic capacity.
Thank you for that illuminating response, Mr. Dzogchen!

BTW, it appears that KTR's commentary, in its original form, can be found here:
http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/creation.pdf
Last edited by dzogchungpa on Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Very clear statements about the Dzogchen path- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Post by Crazywisdom »

Simon E. wrote:In which case surely its 'One of' :smile:
Some folks might think TUR is authoritative, at least those that accept the indispensability of lineage and refuge.
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