Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

newbie
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by newbie »

It is clear now that one does not have to rely solely on the webcasts to have a connection with the teacher, the teachings, and the community.
Thank you!
:anjali:
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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Karma_Yeshe »

newbie wrote:Karma Yeshe wants that from a Khaita dance extract to be liberated.
Where did I say that I want "that from a Khaita dance extract to be liberated."? I want lasting, true happiness for all sentinent beings, no matter how they get there!
newbie wrote:
No, it needs to be a gradual approach.

My best guess is that it looks like a weird approach because one is not familiar to what it means to be liberated or coming close to being liberated.
If I knew one thing about the precious Dzogchen teachings, it would be that there is no need for a gradual approach looking from the POV of the teaching.
Maybe weird is not the right word for the impression that I got from the local DC sangha dancing Khaita. After all, I am not an english native speaker. But I can tell you that many of the people I saw dancing Khaita are close friends of mine and I told them the same thing that I wrote here on Dharma Wheel. But they were much more relaxed about it...

Karma Yeshe
newbie
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by newbie »

newbie
Posts: 185
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:11 am

Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by newbie »

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Harimoo wrote:In the DC community, it seems to me that differente persons practise different exercises. Isn't it a kind of gradualism (not in the doctrine) ?

level 1 - Khaita
level 2 - Dance of the Vajra
level 3 - Yantra Yoga
level 4 - SMS
The first three are ways that a practitioner can work with their energy (it is easy to effect energy through body). The fourth is a systematic approach to learning many aspects of practice dealing with body, speech, and mind. In essence, these are just ways for individuals to work with the transmission through body, speech, and mind to integrate in their knowledge.

Kevin
Khaita is not really a liberating practice but more a weird cultural approach. The local DC showed it here at the Vesakh. I cannot help but thinking about tibetans dancing to german pop music in Lhasa, when I see germans dancing to tibetan pop music in Berlin.

E.g. this would be my proposal for the reverse approach, it is more connected to Vajrayana behaviour:
http://www.clipfish.de/musikvideos/vide ... die-nacht/

It even says "Komm' wir steigen auf das süße Dach dieser Welt", which is a clear reference to Tibet.

:mrgreen:

KY
I do remember something about a reverse approach :thanks: , but I am in such a mood ... that whatever trial is meant to miss the mark.
:anjali:
steve_bakr
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by steve_bakr »

Vasana wrote:
MiphamFan wrote:You can do yantra right after receiving DI, or SMS practice's.
The preliminary excercises and 25 Yantras are taught publicly now, even without D.I.

Realization its self may be non gradual but stabilizing recognition is something that needs ongoing application.

Non-gradual doesn't mean a magic light switch comes on only once and you're completely finished unless you're of the highest capacity of practioners who has no need to stabilize your initial recognition.

Most of us need to recognize mind escence again and again until it's stable hence these auxiliary practices to help integrate the natural state.

Yantra can be a complete path in anf of its self if completely mastered, although the path of means is always to be accompanied by the path of wisdom.
This seems like a wise answer in terms of stabilizing the natural state. A Tantra translated by Wilkonson as "The Tantras of Vajrasattva's Magnificent Sky" demonstrates the non-gradualism of the Great Perfection, and so does that called "The Supreme Source." These two seem to say that the ways of cause and result, of working towards a goal, are not the highest. Some even call meditation a hindrance when it has a goal in mind. They state that the natural state is not to be worked for, because it is already here. But stabilization of this state is very appropriate because there are many distractions.
steve_bakr
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by steve_bakr »

steve_bakr wrote:
Vasana wrote:
MiphamFan wrote:You can do yantra right after receiving DI, or SMS practice's.
The preliminary excercises and 25 Yantras are taught publicly now, even without D.I.

Realization its self may be non gradual but stabilizing recognition is something that needs ongoing application.

Non-gradual doesn't mean a magic light switch comes on only once and you're completely finished unless you're of the highest capacity of practioners who has no need to stabilize your initial recognition.

Most of us need to recognize mind escence again and again until it's stable hence these auxiliary practices to help integrate the natural state.

Yantra can be a complete path in anf of its self if completely mastered, although the path of means is always to be accompanied by the path of wisdom.
This seems like a wise answer in terms of stabilizing the natural state. Good to be reminded, as my daily life can be distracting.
Malcolm
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by Malcolm »

steve_bakr wrote:
Vasana wrote:
MiphamFan wrote:You can do yantra right after receiving DI, or SMS practice's.
The preliminary excercises and 25 Yantras are taught publicly now, even without D.I.

Realization its self may be non gradual but stabilizing recognition is something that needs ongoing application.

Non-gradual doesn't mean a magic light switch comes on only once and you're completely finished unless you're of the highest capacity of practioners who has no need to stabilize your initial recognition.

Most of us need to recognize mind escence again and again until it's stable hence these auxiliary practices to help integrate the natural state.

Yantra can be a complete path in anf of its self if completely mastered, although the path of means is always to be accompanied by the path of wisdom.
This seems like a wise answer in terms of stabilizing the natural state. A Tantra translated by Wilkonson as "The Tantras of Vajrasattva's Magnificent Sky" demonstrates the non-gradualism of the Great Perfection, and so does that called "The Supreme Source." These two seem to say that the ways of cause and result, of working towards a goal, are not the highest. Some even call meditation a hindrance when it has a goal in mind. They state that the natural state is not to be worked for, because it is already here. But stabilization of this state is very appropriate because there are many distractions.
Recognition, realization, liberation, this corresponds to the three rigpas: the rigpa of the basis, the rigpa of the path, and the rigpa of the result.
steve_bakr
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Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?

Post by steve_bakr »

Malcolm wrote:
steve_bakr wrote:
Vasana wrote:
The preliminary excercises and 25 Yantras are taught publicly now, even without D.I.

Realization its self may be non gradual but stabilizing recognition is something that needs ongoing application.

Non-gradual doesn't mean a magic light switch comes on only once and you're completely finished unless you're of the highest capacity of practioners who has no need to stabilize your initial recognition.

Most of us need to recognize mind escence again and again until it's stable hence these auxiliary practices to help integrate the natural state.

Yantra can be a complete path in anf of its self if completely mastered, although the path of means is always to be accompanied by the path of wisdom.
This seems like a wise answer in terms of stabilizing the natural state. A Tantra translated by Wilkonson as "The Tantras of Vajrasattva's Magnificent Sky" demonstrates the non-gradualism of the Great Perfection, and so does that called "The Supreme Source." These two seem to say that the ways of cause and result, of working towards a goal, are not the highest. Some even call meditation a hindrance when it has a goal in mind. They state that the natural state is not to be worked for, because it is already here. But stabilization of this state is very appropriate because there are many distractions.
Recognition, realization, liberation, this corresponds to the three rigpas: the rigpa of the basis, the rigpa of the path, and the rigpa of the result.
Thanks Malcom. I am looking forward to reading "Buddhahood In This Life" when it is delivered on my Kindle on Dec 6.
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