Yidam and Dzogchen

[Pero]

Can you say more about these two? Especially the Kachigmas? What are they?

This is a practice coming from Nubchen Sangye Yeshe and Jnanakumara. It's taken from the Longchen Rabjam Tantra and is based on what is defined as skad-cig-ma dang-po shes-pa, meaning the "first instantaneous consciousness" or something like that. This refers to the state of the consciousness before the arising of thoughts. There are two ways of explaining the practice depending on how the instructions are structured : "day, night, and morning", or the three moments of practice (equipoise, relaxation and progress).

Interesting, thanks! Does anyone teach this these days?
Also how about Longde in general? Other than Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche I haven't seen much mention of it. I think I heard Younge Khachab Rinpoche also teaches it?

[mutsuk]

its best to only discuss generalizations and "quick glances" and not specifics on a open forum.

Sure but then make it so so that you don't say wrong things. You can be precise and right even in a quick glance.

longde's ngondzog gyalpo... theres no ngondro in any of it.

Here again (decidedly!) you're wrong. Have a look at volume 19 of the Kama in which you have the Longdé works describing the practices of Ngöndzok Gyelpo. You have quite a few Ngondro, sadhana, yidam practice and other things there.

and thats the last im going to entertain this topic.

I don't want to sound rude but it would indeed be good to stop entertaining that topic with wrong statements which simply reflect your opinion (baseless) and not the actual way things are practiced and the actual contents of the texts.

[mutsuk]

Interesting, thanks!

This is indeed a very interesting practice which is "simpler" than the four Symbols. I don't know if "simpler" is really right, but the practice is kind of more "direct", and very effective.

Does anyone teach this these days?

HE Khetsun Sangpo gave some instructions on this several times. Tokden Rinpoche (from the Drigung lineage) is well-versed in Longdé too and often quite willing to teach unusual practices (provided you come with the proper credentials). There are several others. Lama Tenzin Samphel should teach it quite in detail too.

Also how about Longde in general? Other than Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche I haven't seen much mention of it. I think I heard Younge Khachab Rinpoche also teaches it?

I haven't met Younge Khachab Rinpoche yet but it's true that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has taught this system quite a lot. While still alive, Khenpo Jigphun gave private Longdé transmissions (of the whole set of Longdé works from the Kama) several times in Tibet. Years ago HE Khetsun Sangpo gave detailled transmissions in Europe of special teachings associated with Longdé, including Chülen and other special teachings coming from this system such as the 3 Nyengyü (Oral Transmissions) of the Vajra Bridge.

[Heruka]

I don't want to sound rude but it would indeed be good to stop entertaining that topic with wrong statements which simply reflect your opinion (baseless) and not the actual way things are practiced and the actual contents of the texts.

heruka ngondzog gyalpo is anuyoga practice no? so belongs to path of transformation? Atiyoga is path of transformation?

[Pero]

...
HE Khetsun Sangpo gave some instructions on this several times. Tokden Rinpoche (from the Drigung lineage) is well-versed in Longdé too and often quite willing to teach unusual practices (provided you come with the proper credentials). There are several others. Lama Tenzin Samphel should teach it quite in detail too.
...

Do any of these lamas teach in Europe? I'm sorry to say that other than Khenpo Jigphun I haven't heard of them. And Khetsun Sangpo has already died if google got me the right person.

BTW, do you know if there are any translations of Longde texts available somewhere? (outside of DC)

[mutsuk]

heruka ngondzog gyalpo is anuyoga practice no? so belongs to path of transformation? Atiyoga is path of transformation?

The Ngöndzok Gyelpo practices I am referring belong to the Longdé tradition. You have all the texts related to this Yidam in vol. 19 of the Kama. This is the Ati yoga division. Look at the volume on TBRC, pp. 5-473 with all Ngöndro and Chos-spyod (daily practices), then the "cycle of practices" (sgrub-pa'i skor) combining sadhanas, sevasadhanas, preliminaries, instructions on the main practice, activity practices, dakini practices, etc. Then you have the ancillary cycle (cha lag skor) with lama, yidam, khandro practices, then Chülen cycle, etc.
Ngöndzok Gyelpo does not only occur in Anuyoga.

[mutsuk]

Do any of these lamas teach in Europe? I'm sorry to say that other than Khenpo Jigphun I haven't heard of them.

Yes they do. Tokden Rinpoche is a famed figure who happened to even have political responsabilities in the ladakhi GVT. He is a Drigung tulku brought up in a drigung lineage which owes much to the Jigme Lingpa tradition. He was also one of the foremost disciples of Dudjom Rinpoche and his main heir in the transmission of the Rinchen Terdzo.

And Khetsun Sangpo has already died if google got me the right person.

Yes unfortunately, Rinpoche passed away last year. Lama Tenzin Samphel is his principal disciple in Europe and teaches the 3 series of Dzogchen, including the Black Yangti tradition which Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche was famous for. Oh, by the way Heruka, there are some Ngöndro in the Black Yangti too (four turning thoughts, Refuge, bodhicitta, etc.)

BTW, do you know if there are any translations of Longde texts available somewhere? (outside of DC)

There is not much in English as far as I know. There is quite a lot in French and Italian (outside DC). There must be some in german too (still outside DC).

[Heruka]

heruka ngondzog gyalpo is anuyoga practice no? so belongs to path of transformation? Atiyoga is path of transformation?

The Ngöndzok Gyelpo practices I am referring belong to the Longdé tradition. You have all the texts related to this Yidam in vol. 19 of the Kama. This is the Ati yoga division. Look at the volume on TBRC, pp. 5-473 with all Ngöndro and Chos-spyod (daily practices), then the "cycle of practices" (sgrub-pa'i skor) combining sadhanas, sevasadhanas, preliminaries, instructions on the main practice, activity practices, dakini practices, etc. Then you have the ancillary cycle (cha lag skor) with lama, yidam, khandro practices, then Chülen cycle, etc.
Ngöndzok Gyelpo does not only occur in Anuyoga.

tonpa ngondrog gyalpo in anuyoga practices require tantric initiation, related to his form and cycle as you say. no problem.

root tantras of longde, longchen rabjam gyalpoi gyud, and namkha tang nyampai gyud. very ancient according to the lore.

[mutsuk]

tonpa ngondrog gyalpo in anuyoga practices require tantric initiation, related to his form and cycle as you say. no problem.

As said above, Ngondzok Gyelpo does not only appear in Anuyoga. You will find him in the Man-ngag-sde set of teachings (in the tradition of the 12 Tonpas included f.i. in the Dorje Lingpa termas, among others).
In the Longdé (therefore in atiyoga) you'll get the Ngondzok Gyelpo initiation in Kama, vol. 19, pp. 175-217. You'll also get the Ngondro (+ ablution rituals, etc.) earlier in this volume.

[Pero]

There is not much in English as far as I know. There is quite a lot in French and Italian (outside DC). There must be some in german too (still outside DC).

I know in French Jean-luc Achard translated the 17 tantras, I don't know if they were published already. But bummer, I don't speak any of those languages.
Thanks for you replies!

[wisdomfire]

Since the 3 kayas and the accumulations of merit and wisdom are complete within rigpa primordially, Dzogchen practice lacks nothing and leaves no fundamental need for any other practice. However, what we have is a question of individual capacity and practicality. Only very rare individuals "get" Dzogchen right off - and by "get" I mean having actual non-conceptual, uncontrived knowledge of their true nature - so it is simply more practical to continue benefiting oneself and others by gathering the two accumulations in the conventional way as one receives Dzogchen transmission, instructions and training and one comes to eventually know the natural state in actuality, unmistakably, and gain stability and strength in that.

Thanks Pema Rigdzin,

I'm not sure about Dzogchen practice being sufficient to accumulate conceptual merit too. Is there any scriptural basis for this? Because if accumulation of wisdom was sufficient to accumulate merit, then there would be no need to divide into the two categories of accumulations right?

Any opinions? Thanks!

[Pema Rigdzin]

Since the 3 kayas and the accumulations of merit and wisdom are complete within rigpa primordially, Dzogchen practice lacks nothing and leaves no fundamental need for any other practice. However, what we have is a question of individual capacity and practicality. Only very rare individuals "get" Dzogchen right off - and by "get" I mean having actual non-conceptual, uncontrived knowledge of their true nature - so it is simply more practical to continue benefiting oneself and others by gathering the two accumulations in the conventional way as one receives Dzogchen transmission, instructions and training and one comes to eventually know the natural state in actuality, unmistakably, and gain stability and strength in that.

Thanks Pema Rigdzin,

I'm not sure about Dzogchen practice being sufficient to accumulate conceptual merit too. Is there any scriptural basis for this? Because if accumulation of wisdom was sufficient to accumulate merit, then there would be no need to divide into the two categories of accumulations right?

Any opinions? Thanks!

Wisdomfire,

You've misunderstood what I said. What I said was that "the 3 kayas and the accumulations of merit and wisdom are primordially complete within rigpa." We have the entire corpus of Dzogchen tantras as the scriptural basis for this. However, if one has not yet been able to recognize rigpa, or for someone drawn to a path in which recognition of rigpa would be at the end of the path rather than the beginning, then the only way to proceed would be to amass the two accumulations as is commonly taught, right?

Of course, pretty much every Dzogchen master that ever lived spoke of the usefulness and expedience of continuing to gather the two accumulations while on the Dzogchen path for those unable to fully realize rigpa upon having it pointed out (which means 99% of Dzogchen practitioners so far in this world). This is because for a long time, even people who have been able to recognize rigpa are unable to continue in it for very long at all... Such people still spend most of their time in ordinary mind, not rigpa, so it behooves them to continue to practice Dharma in a way they're able to until such time as they are extremely stable in rigpa.

[heart]

Since the 3 kayas and the accumulations of merit and wisdom are complete within rigpa primordially, Dzogchen practice lacks nothing and leaves no fundamental need for any other practice. However, what we have is a question of individual capacity and practicality. Only very rare individuals "get" Dzogchen right off - and by "get" I mean having actual non-conceptual, uncontrived knowledge of their true nature - so it is simply more practical to continue benefiting oneself and others by gathering the two accumulations in the conventional way as one receives Dzogchen transmission, instructions and training and one comes to eventually know the natural state in actuality, unmistakably, and gain stability and strength in that.

Thanks Pema Rigdzin,

I'm not sure about Dzogchen practice being sufficient to accumulate conceptual merit too. Is there any scriptural basis for this? Because if accumulation of wisdom was sufficient to accumulate merit, then there would be no need to divide into the two categories of accumulations right?

Any opinions? Thanks!

Wisdomfire,

You've misunderstood what I said. What I said was that "the 3 kayas and the accumulations of merit and wisdom are primordially complete within rigpa." We have the entire corpus of Dzogchen tantras as the scriptural basis for this. However, if one has not yet been able to recognize rigpa, or for someone drawn to a path in which recognition of rigpa would be at the end of the path rather than the beginning, then the only way to proceed would be to amass the two accumulations as is commonly taught, right?

Of course, pretty much every Dzogchen master that ever lived spoke of the usefulness and expedience of continuing to gather the two accumulations while on the Dzogchen path for those unable to fully realize rigpa upon having it pointed out (which means 99% of Dzogchen practitioners so far in this world). This is because for a long time, even people who have been able to recognize rigpa are unable to continue in it for very long at all... Such people still spend most of their time in ordinary mind, not rigpa, so it behooves them to continue to practice Dharma in a way they're able to until such time as they are extremely stable in rigpa.

There is also a reason why this is so and that is that forcibly trying to prolong the natural glimpses of rigpa is actually just conceptual mind.

/magnus

[Pema Rigdzin]

Wisdomfire,

You've misunderstood what I said. What I said was that "the 3 kayas and the accumulations of merit and wisdom are primordially complete within rigpa." We have the entire corpus of Dzogchen tantras as the scriptural basis for this. However, if one has not yet been able to recognize rigpa, or for someone drawn to a path in which recognition of rigpa would be at the end of the path rather than the beginning, then the only way to proceed would be to amass the two accumulations as is commonly taught, right?

Of course, pretty much every Dzogchen master that ever lived spoke of the usefulness and expedience of continuing to gather the two accumulations while on the Dzogchen path for those unable to fully realize rigpa upon having it pointed out (which means 99% of Dzogchen practitioners so far in this world). This is because for a long time, even people who have been able to recognize rigpa are unable to continue in it for very long at all... Such people still spend most of their time in ordinary mind, not rigpa, so it behooves them to continue to practice Dharma in a way they're able to until such time as they are extremely stable in rigpa.

There is also a reason why this is so and that is that forcibly trying to prolong the natural glimpses of rigpa is actually just conceptual mind.

/magnus

That's a very good point, Magnus.

[conebeckham]

Good stuff, guys, just a comment: we often hear about mixing teachings and how it can be confusing. Good example: "Ordinary Mind" in Mahamudra terminology (Thamel Gyi Shepa) is actually different from your usage of "ordinary mind" vs. Rigpa.



Carry on.....

[heart]

Good stuff, guys, just a comment: we often hear about mixing teachings and how it can be confusing. Good example: "Ordinary Mind" in Mahamudra terminology (Thamel Gyi Shepa) is actually different from your usage of "ordinary mind" vs. Rigpa.



Carry on.....

I am pretty sure Pema means "ordinary confused mind" or just mind, for sure he is not referring to "Thamel Gyi Shepa" that is roughly equivalent to rigpa or the natural state because then what he says would make no sense.

/magnus

[mmm]

Dear mutsuk, do you know something more about Ladakh Togden Rinpoches teachings on longde? Did he ever teach to westerners this transmission? Is it something apart of what is in kama? Thanks a lot. good bye,m

[mutsuk]

Dear mutsuk, do you know something more about Ladakh Togden Rinpoches teachings on longde? Did he ever teach to westerners this transmission? Is it something apart of what is in kama? Thanks a lot. good bye,m

Dear mmm,

Yes Rinpoche gave teachings from the Kama, vol. 19. I have pm-ed you the exact list of texts that he gave at that time. Rinpoche was invited for giving Kagyu teachings to a Kagyu group in France. But during his breaks, he accepted to give Dzogchen teachings to a small number of individuals, including Longdé teachings.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Good stuff, guys, just a comment: we often hear about mixing teachings and how it can be confusing. Good example: "Ordinary Mind" in Mahamudra terminology (Thamel Gyi Shepa) is actually different from your usage of "ordinary mind" vs. Rigpa.



Carry on.....

I am pretty sure Pema means "ordinary confused mind" or just mind, for sure he is not referring to "Thamel Gyi Shepa" that is roughly equivalent to rigpa or the natural state because then what he says would make no sense.

/magnus

Yes, as Magnus suggested, I meant "sem" or "discursive mind" when I said "ordinary mind." In Dzogchen, it's very common to see sem (and other equivalent Tibetan terms) translated as "ordinary mind."

I suppose it is good to clarify the usage difference between these two approaches, though, since there are some systems of combined Dzogchen and Mahamudra, and some lamas who are masters of both systems sometimes use a bit of the flavor and terminology of Mahamudra when teaching a more step by step approach to Dzogchen.

[muni]

no, no, no, I never said you cannot practice ngondro, I just say, like ChNN says it too, that ngondro is not a part of Dzogchen ... but if it pleases you for sure you can practice ngondro.

Ah... Though "not a part of Dzogchen" is kind of vague.

There could not be any "preparation" to Dzogchen, therefore any "preparation" is not a Dzogchen practice ... it's simple, no?

As Garab Dorje says ...
Dzogpa Chenpo is the fortress of view,
Its Paths and stages are completed instantly.
It is not comparable to the lower yanas.

Sönam

Base: primordial purity, path: spontaneous selfperfection and so fruit confidence and remaining in contemplation. Thoughts liberated in itself - vision liberated in itself. No separation.

This is not exactly home in a yidam topic.

Thank you, Sönam. _/\_