Meditating on the self and emptiness

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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NullSelf
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Meditating on the self and emptiness

Post by NullSelf »

In certain types of meditation (and I'll note I'm very much a beginner), we are encouraged to look for oneself, in order to find that there is no self, and to experience pure consciousness (even in this, I've probably either grossly simplified or gotten something wrong).

However, my understanding is that while meditating, generally we are to acknowledge thoughts as they arise but not to pursue them further, and let them go as soon as possible. How can we look for oneself - what it means to be me - if we cannot think about what it means to be me, or even to think about what it is we are trying to look for?

I realize there may be various stances on this, particularly coming from different Buddhist traditions, but then again, perhaps they all agree.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Meditating on the self and emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Meditation on no self, (any type of analytical meditation where you are in fact contemptlating stuff) is Vipassana meditation.

Sitting and watching the breath or whatever, allowing thoughts to pass without either suppressing them or indulging in them, is shamatha meditation.

You practice them alternately.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Aemilius
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Re: Meditating on the self and emptiness

Post by Aemilius »

Buddhaghosha (in his Path of Purification) does not classify mindfulness of breathing as merely a samatha practice, indeed he says:
"Or alternatively, this mindfulness of breathing as
a meditation subject—which is foremost among the
various meditation subjects of all Buddhas, [some]
Paccekabuddhas and [some] Buddhas’ disciples
as a
basis for attaining distinction and abiding in bliss here
and now—is not easy to develop without leaving the
neighbourhood of villages, which resound with the
noises of women, men, elephants, horses, etc., noise
being a thorn to jhāna (see A V 135), whereas in the
forest away from a village a meditator can at his ease
set about discerning this meditation subject and
achieve the fourth jhāna in mindfulness of breathing;
and then, by making that same jhāna the basis for
comprehension of formations [with insight] (XX.2f.),
he can reach Arahantship, the highest fruit.
and so on... "
You have to read some more for the understanding of it, Buddhaghosha goes on for pages and pages.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Meditating on the self and emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

What Buddhaghosha says is true.
My reply was in within the context of the question in the OP, where a beginner is more or less asking about doing two seemingly different things at the same time.
I didn’t mean to imply that mindfulness of breathing is a limited practice in any way.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
zerwe
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Re: Meditating on the self and emptiness

Post by zerwe »

NullSelf wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:46 pm In certain types of meditation (and I'll note I'm very much a beginner), we are encouraged to look for oneself, in order to find that there is no self, and to experience pure consciousness (even in this, I've probably either grossly simplified or gotten something wrong).

However, my understanding is that while meditating, generally we are to acknowledge thoughts as they arise but not to pursue them further, and let them go as soon as possible. How can we look for oneself - what it means to be me - if we cannot think about what it means to be me, or even to think about what it is we are trying to look for?

I realize there may be various stances on this, particularly coming from different Buddhist traditions, but then again, perhaps they all agree.
What you are doing can be developed into a helpful tool. Having a teacher helps. Also, using analysis (vipassana) and switching back and forth between that and a concentration (samatha) based approach to meditation is often used. Again, if you can find someone to help guide you this is good.

Some study of emptiness is helpful too.

Having an understanding of the "two truths" (conventional and ultimate) might help.

You have to take the time to understand which object you are looking to negate. It is easy to mistake experiences of sense consciousness' and mental consciousness as "self." It is easy to mistake the rest of the aggregates as the "self" and the combined collection as "self." It is said that the perceived object of self or phenomena are both something that appears to us to exist entirely independent, of its own power, and without causes and conditions--this is false.

Also, it is explained that emptiness does not mean that things do not exist--because things are empty of true or inherent existence is why they appear to us at all, they just do not exist in the way we perceive them to.

Additionally, the emptiness of self or phenomena are neither nihilism nor realism. However, it is said that if we look for the essence of any phenomena it can not be found.

The great masters say that what we are looking to get rid of is something that does not actually exist at all, but we might think of it as our wrong apprehension of the object (ignorance)--the erroneous web that our coarse mind casts over subjective experience and clings to as an "I." This is absolutely non-existent, but in the same our gross experiential self depends on causes and conditions, are able to continue to carry out functions, so on, etc...

Do to my own limited experience, I don't know if any of this is helpful or not, but it all takes effort and patience.

Shaun :namaste:
NullSelf
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Re: Meditating on the self and emptiness

Post by NullSelf »

Thank you for all the replies - they were all very helpful and have given me much to look into, but they already have had the benefit of clarifying my question 🙏. In particular, regarding the lack of self - the best way I've been able to relate to this so far is observing how I've changed over the years (certainly this insight is not my own), and even more than that, observing a loved one with dementia: dementia is not a choice anyone makes, indeed many who have it do not even realize it. Yet they clearly are not the same person they used to be, even when their memories are largely intact. But although that is an extreme example, other physical and mental changes occur to us over the years and even day-to-day. Still, I think as was pointed out, this is not the only dimension of "selflessness" or emptiness, and I'll need time and maybe a teacher to aid in appreciating the other aspects - I've been cautioned by some writers that emptiness is not something to be gung-ho in approaching.

Regarding the different aims taken during a meditative session, this makes a lot of sense to me experientially - the one time I tried doing both during the same session felt very frustrating, though that could also be because it was the only time I've attempted to analyze myself during meditation.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Meditating on the self and emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

NullSelf wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:58 am
Regarding the different aims taken during a meditative session, this makes a lot of sense to me experientially - the one time I tried doing both during the same session felt very frustrating, though that could also be because it was the only time I've attempted to analyze myself during meditation.
All Buddhist practices are methods.
Different meditational practices, discipline, chanting, visualization, making offerings, these are all just tools in the Buddhist toolbox.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
undefineable
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Re: Meditating on the self and emptiness

Post by undefineable »

NullSelf wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:58 am observing a loved one with dementia: ... clearly are not the same person they used to be, even when their memories are largely intact.
As someone in an equivalent state that's been progressing this last ~15 years, I'd say there's more of a connection than you might think, but only because they were never the 'same person' to begin with - It would be more accurate to say that the progression of their mind manifested in a broader way, since it had enough support (functioning brain tissue!) to stretch out far enough to fill a 'person without dementia' kind of shape.

As to the part of your original question that we're still discussing, not-self is a tricky one mainly because it's meant to be the natural conclusion of meditation practice, even though you're being told that before you get there. It's a bit like a school experiment and its hypothesis - A lot of the time (especially in the 'online' age), you can find out before you run the test whether the hypothesis will be proved correct. On the other hand, meditation doesn't generally involve searching for anything - thoughts of 'what it means to be me' etc. tend to come up automatically, and are generally just observed as they pass through the mind - rather than disallowed in some way.

I'd also caution about reading 'not-self' as "good news" at any stage - rather than just something like a mild relief or revealing discovery. If you just want it to be true because, for example, there's something about yourself (e.g. ways your mind works) that you want to devalue as illusory because you've got something against it, then this could likely be seen as a misuse of dharma. It wouldn't be something to feel bad about, but as with the thoughts of "me" and so on, it'd be more something you'd 'bring to the path' by treating neutrally - instead of letting ittreat you rather less neutrally...
you wore out your welcome with random precision {Pink Floyd}
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