The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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JimTempleman wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:46 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 pm Ok, you discovered "the first" Buddhist meditation, that's enough of a summation for me.
Is anyone who publishes anything a teacher?
Is anyone who publishes how they did something a teacher?
In some sense yes, but only in a rather weak sense.
:roll:

You say you may have discovered the most ancient Buddhist meditation, and evidently think it's preferable to what others are doing, even though they are practicing with the support of a traditional framework for meditation.

So yeah, you are most certainly claiming to teach people something, and I would not say it is a weak sense other than trying to paper it over.
First people complain that I present a description of a method at all.
Now you complain that I say that the method may be the method of the Four Noble Truths.
I suggest you treat the latter as simply an academic hypothesis, with supporting points, and respond to it in those terms. Do you see the relationship of the method to the Four Noble Truths?
I pointed that out in my first post to you, the FNT apply to pretty much any Buddhist meditation. It is not controversial and not some revelation that is new. The cessation of tanha is an experience, an instruction, not just an academic notion. You didn't discover tanha.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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reiun wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:01 pm Discarding, ceasing, falling/passing away, as some texts describe, is the method for dealing with thoughts that arise during zazen.
I made the following point in my earlier post: An Interpretation of: ‘To Turn Around'
JimTempleman wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:39 pm The next step in meditation is to expand one’s awareness within the host, to follow Chan Master Sheng Yen’s guidance give earlier: “After you have spent considerable time practicing a method, illumination will be so strong that you will no longer be aware of external stimuli.” To achieve that kind of a result we have to transition over from just noticing having each thought to settling into watching thoughts arise, pass by, and fade away of their own accord. This allows awareness to stay with the host. Awareness of the host shifts into the foreground while awareness of the guests fades into the background. Eventually you will only have a vague awareness of the contents of the thoughts, when practicing, but you can clearly watch thoughts arise and fall away.

I would describe this approach as following Master Xuyun’s teaching to shift one’s attention from that of a ‘guest’ to the ‘host’, following the Surangama Sutra and clarified by Master Sheng Yen’s insights.
reiun wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:01 pm But in your quote, you are addressing "enthusiasm to see what the[ b]next thought[/b] would be arise as the previous thoughtstarted to fade."
Yes, that's the 'new method' I'm reporting on. As I said in the post: Note that this is a subtle enthusiasm occurring between successive thoughts; it is not enthusiasm expressed ‘in a thought’ (it is not a ‘guest’).
reiun wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:01 pm During zazen, what practitioner feels enthusiasm for a next thought?!
The 'enthusiasm' is a subtle, barely noticeable desire occurring as one thought end & the next one begins. I had to be very silent to notice it.
reiun wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:01 pm From experience, this would defeat the whole theory and practice of sitting.
Yes, exactly! So I faded it away.
reiun wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:01 pm So it is hard to imagine most earnest practitioners developing such a sentiment in their hearts.

Yes, its one of those subtle habits that keeps one in discriminating-mind. It's not consciously intentional.

Time to quote Dogen!
from Dogen (2007) Shōbōgenzō: The True Dharma-Eye Treasury. Translated by Gudo Wafu Nishijima and Chodo Cross (2007) Appendix II Fukanzazengi (Universal Guide to the Standard Method of Zazen) Volume I. p. 364:
“In general, a quiet room is good for practicing [za]zen, and food and drink are taken in moderation. Cast aside all involvements. Give the myriad things a rest. Do not think of good and bad. Do not consider right and wrong. Stop the driving movement of mind, will, consciousness. Cease intellectual consideration through images, thoughts, and reflections. Do not aim to become a buddha. How could [this] be connected with sitting or lying down?”
My very first thought leading to the 'new method' was to stop driving from one thought to the next! So do I believe that Dogen knew & practiced the method of the Four Noble Truths? Of course I do! Why did he choose not to use the term 'desire' or 'craving'. Perhaps he wanted to dissociate from the Four Noble Truths because he didn't want students to "aim to become a buddha". Probably a good idea, since that's yet another desire. Perhaps that's how it was taught to him.
reiun wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:01 pm I do not criticize your innovation to deal with this issue, and I am glad for you that it works, but it is distinctly different from dealing with thoughts themselves, whether or not the methods are similar.
I appreciate your open mind. I hope I've given you a bit more to consider.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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oryoki wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:56 am Hi Jim, I sometimes read the "Awakening to Reality Blog".
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/
There was recently (5/Sep/2021) given the following reference:
You are all welcomed to join and participate in our Awakening to Reality group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality

It now has 800+ members and still growing rapidly.

Many in the group has had insights into anatta and emptiness and will be able to offer good advices.
If you are a fan of Facebook (I am not a member) then you can check it out and compare your experience to others in the group.
However, Zen teacher is preferred.
Thanks. I will look into it.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:58 pm Please define samādhi.
Samadhi, or what is also referred to as "meditative absorption," "unified mind," and "one-pointedness of mind." There are, however, many levels of samadhi, some shallow, some deep.

This is the Samadhi of Silent Illumination I experienced:
from Master Sheng Yen (2012) The Method of No Method
While experiencing the immediacy of the environment, you are not influenced by it—it is all there but absorbed in stillness. There are no inner thoughts, no conditioning by external things. You perceive everything in the immediacy of the present. This is the silent aspect. The illumination aspect is the clear awareness of things as they are. You are undisturbed, motionless, and very clear as to the multitude of things surrounding you. This is the third stage.
Master Sheng Yen considers the ‘third stage of Silent Illumination’ as a deep level of one-mind that has yet to attain no-self.

This is the highest level of the Samadhi of Silent Illumination:
Master Sheng Yen also said in The Method of No Method:
“… in Silent Illumination samadhi means something different from the usual meaning of one-pointed absorption. In Buddhist meditation there are several stages of samadhi, sometimes divided into eight, sometimes four stages. Sometimes they are referred to as dhyanas, or “meditative absorptions.” The samadhi of Silent Illumination, on the other hand, is the samadhi of the buddhas. What does this mean? In the sutras the Buddha is often described as always being in samadhi, whether he was walking, sitting, eating, talking, or teaching. Here samadhi has a broader meaning of the mind not moving, always being serene or tranquil and not being stirred by favorable or adverse conditions. This samadhi is the wisdom of the buddhas and the ultimate realization of Silent Illumination.”
By ‘the ultimate realization’ Master Sheng Yen is referring to the final stage of Silent Illumination in which awareness itself falls away, the self is silent, and enlightenment occurs. I’m not saying that I reached anything like that.

In Master Sheng Yen’s book Subtle Wisdom, in Chapter 5. Methods of Practice and Stages of Development in Ch’an he associates samadhi with one-mind and explains four sub stages of samadhi. Here’s an outline of the one-mind samadhi (which is related to, but not the same as the samadhi of Silent Illumination):

(2.a) an elementary level of one mind, (the stage after scattered mind).
– this state of mind is clear and sustained,
– You & your method of practice become one.
– Body & mind are no longer separate but are fused or absorbed into a single stream of concentration.
––––––– You may feel that your body has lost its weight or heaviness and disappeared. What you really experience is a fully unified & integrated body & mind, and a concentrated mind.

(2.b.1) the intermediate level of one-mind
– you feel that whatever your senses encounter, what you see and hear, is the same as yourself. (Whatever you sense is the same as yourself)
––––––– The sense organs no longer have separate functions, and
––––––– there is no distinction between what you see & what you hear.

(2.b.2) this unified mind deepens & becomes more refined until:
– you feel no distinction between:
––––––– inside & outside
––––––– yourself & environment.
– It feels as though the one & the two are absolutely unified in oneness.

(2.c) there is a deeper level of one-mind.
– the distinction or division between thoughts disappears.
– There is a steady single point of concentration, or stream of concentration. A single thought, if you will.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 pm Ok, you discovered "the first" Buddhist meditation, that's enough of a summation for me.
Is anyone who publishes anything a teacher?
Is anyone who publishes how they did something a teacher?
In some sense yes, but only in a rather weak sense.
:roll:
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 pm You say you may have discovered the most ancient Buddhist meditation
What I'm suggesting is that people should look at the content of the post, at the points of comparison being made, and respond to that.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 pm and evidently think it's preferable to what others are doing, even though they are practicing with the support of a traditional framework for meditation.
Why are you trying to put words in my communications that I never wrote?
I'm not telling people what to practice. I'm just pointing out, what may be an old method that has become ignored. (Or it might be in use by some group right now. Or it might be a new method, which I consider to be highly unlikely.)
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 pm So yeah, you are most certainly claiming to teach people something, and I would not say it is a weak sense other than trying to paper it over.
If anything I'd like to teach people to read & respond to what is actually written.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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JimTempleman wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:10 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 pm Ok, you discovered "the first" Buddhist meditation, that's enough of a summation for me.
Is anyone who publishes anything a teacher?
Is anyone who publishes how they did something a teacher?
In some sense yes, but only in a rather weak sense.
:roll:
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 pm You say you may have discovered the most ancient Buddhist meditation
What I'm suggesting is that people should look at the content of the post, at the points of comparison being made, and respond to that.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 pm and evidently think it's preferable to what others are doing, even though they are practicing with the support of a traditional framework for meditation.
Why are you trying to put words in my communications that I never wrote?
I'm not telling people what to practice. I'm just pointing out, what may be an old method that has become ignored. (Or it might be in use by some group right now. Or it might be a new method, which I consider to be highly unlikely.)
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 pm So yeah, you are most certainly claiming to teach people something, and I would not say it is a weak sense other than trying to paper it over.
If anything I'd like to teach people to read & respond to what is actually written.
I have. It might just be that it is less relevant to people than you think it is.

Namely:

The idea that the Four Noble Truths apply to cessation of desire in meditation (for the next thought, feeling, whatever - any craving for becoming) is not new or unusual, it is foundational.

The rest is harder for me to follow and runs into the bumps I mentioned before - the nature of mind vs. appearances, and what "illumination" is when facing thought vs when facing "mind".

So in fact I did read what you wrote, and responded to it as best I could. You have chosen to reject the critique, which is fine.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:30 pm I pointed that out in my first post to you, the FNT apply to pretty much any Buddhist meditation.
Yes you did & I agree with that. You could also say impermanence, sunyata, & no-self work the same way.
But you are ignoring the 'fine structure' similarities that don't apply to the other cases.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:30 pm It is not controversial and not some revelation that is new. The cessation of tanha is an experience, an instruction, not just an academic notion. You didn't discover tanha.
I'm claiming the samadhi of the third level of Silent Illumination, which is not a big deal in the large scheme of things, but it was a big deal for me.

If someone of the caliber of 'Name-Your-Favorite-Teacher' had that experience it might have propelled them considerably further. Truly idle speculation.

But that's no reason to dismiss the rest of the points being made.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:14 pm I have. It might just be that it is less relevant to people than you think it is.

Namely:

The idea that the Four Noble Truths apply to cessation of desire in meditation (for the next thought, feeling, whatever - any craving for becoming) is not new or unusual, it is foundational.
That's what the textbooks say. I'm suggesting focusing on the subtle desires that link thought together, and claiming that, at least for me, it had a strong effect the first time I applied it. That's different from a general idea of dropping off desire. Granted the two approaches might lead to the same end result: dropping away the desire for thoughts or sensations.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:14 pm The rest is harder for me to follow and runs into the bumps I mentioned before - the nature of mind vs. appearances, and what "illumination" is when facing thought vs when facing "mind".
Yes, you asked a number of good questions and did better than I would probably do at reviewing your posts about your practices. But then you started to come too, what I feel, are sweeping generalizations. From my vantage point I'm presenting a new/old approach in a clear and interconnected manner as I can. I don't see how I can do anything like that without being called out as someone trying to disrupt other peoples' practices. New ideas & approaches are inherently 'dangerous' in the sense that it might change peoples' minds.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:14 pm So in fact I did read what you wrote, and responded to it as best I could. You have chosen to reject the critique, which is fine.
I have attempted to respond/answer your critique, not reject it (for the most part).

Regards.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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JimTempleman wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:58 pm Please define samādhi.
Samadhi, or what is also referred to as "meditative absorption," "unified mind," and "one-pointedness of mind." There are, however, many levels of samadhi, some shallow, some deep.
Yes, samadhi is one-pointedness. It’s a mental factor all sentient beings have, all the time.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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JimTempleman wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:09 am

That's what the textbooks say. I'm suggesting focusing on the subtle desires that link thought together, and claiming that, at least for me, it had a strong effect the first time I applied it. That's different from a general idea of dropping off desire. Granted the two approaches might lead to the same end result: dropping away the desire for thoughts or sensations.
I think it's unique to you because you are mostly self-taught, I have been at plenty of teachings where this is directly addressed, and it is not a new or unusual concept to apply the Four Noble Truths to meditation in this way.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:00 am
JimTempleman wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:09 am

That's what the textbooks say. I'm suggesting focusing on the subtle desires that link thought together, and claiming that, at least for me, it had a strong effect the first time I applied it. That's different from a general idea of dropping off desire. Granted the two approaches might lead to the same end result: dropping away the desire for thoughts or sensations.
I think it's unique to you because you are mostly self-taught, I have been at plenty of teachings where this is directly addressed, and it is not a new or unusual concept to apply the Four Noble Truths to meditation in this way.
Fine. If you come across a published reference of 'fading away the subtle desire for the next thought to cease thought', please let us know by adding it to this post, as long as this post remains active. A book, magazine article, journal article, or any kind of posting on the web would be of interest.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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I think you may make great progress, as you seem to have a very analytical mind and are able to connect different concepts very creatively. This is a great asset in buddhism.

However, I reiterate the views of my friends here that you should do so under the tutelage of a teacher. You will find that this accelerates things, not impedes them.

And I would not refer to the Four Noble Truths as skillful means. 'Skillful means' implies that the Four Noble Truths are not true, but simply a means to an end. I have never heard them characterized that way, and I think it is a serious error, in fact. Please be careful.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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:applause:
JimTempleman wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:16 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:00 am
JimTempleman wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:09 am

That's what the textbooks say. I'm suggesting focusing on the subtle desires that link thought together, and claiming that, at least for me, it had a strong effect the first time I applied it. That's different from a general idea of dropping off desire. Granted the two approaches might lead to the same end result: dropping away the desire for thoughts or sensations.
I think it's unique to you because you are mostly self-taught, I have been at plenty of teachings where this is directly addressed, and it is not a new or unusual concept to apply the Four Noble Truths to meditation in this way.
Fine. If you come across a published reference of 'fading away the subtle desire for the next thought to cease thought', please let us know by adding it to this post, as long as this post remains active. A book, magazine article, journal article, or any kind of posting on the web would be of interest.
It would usually simply be described as a "desire for becoming" in the teachings I've had that touch on this, and said desire could be towards perceived external objects, people, objects of the mind using the Four Frames of Reference, etc.

On the other end, something like "desire for the next thought to cease thought" is a desire for annihilation as characterized by the Pali Canon - a desire for non-being, in this case for a state without thought, or the desire for absence of thought.

Regardless of the actual words used, a foundational (literally) way of observing the mind, I am not sure I can't see the idea as unique or new beyond your personal wording.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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Supramundane wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:16 am I think you may make great progress, as you seem to have a very analytical mind and are able to connect different concepts very creatively. This is a great asset in buddhism.

However, I reiterate the views of my friends here that you should do so under the tutelage of a teacher. You will find that this accelerates things, not impedes them.
Thank you for your concern & guidance.
Supramundane wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:16 am And I would not refer to the Four Noble Truths as skillful means. 'Skillful means' implies that the Four Noble Truths are not true, but simply a means to an end. I have never heard them characterized that way, and I think it is a serious error, in fact. Please be careful.
Regrettably, I see that there may be an issue. I selected the term because I associated it with the Buddha. But now that you mention it, I remember that the term "expedient means" refers to a technique that may not be true in an absolute sense.

Skillful Means is 'Upaya-kaushalya' rather than simply 'Upaya',
and 'Upaya-kaushalya' appears to be viewed in a positive light.
See for example:
https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki/Upaya-kaushalya

Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upaya#cite_note-2
The Digital Dictionary of Buddhism notes that rendering the Chinese term fāngbiàn into English as 'skillful' or as 'expedient' is often difficult, because the connotations shift according to the context as (1) the teaching being something to marvel at — the fact that the Buddha can present these difficult truths in everyday language (thus, skillful), yet that (2) they are teachings of a lower order as compared to the ultimate truth, and are far removed from reflecting reality, and are a kind of 'stopgap' measure (thus, expedient).

Let me know if you still take issue with it. I doubt that the Forum staff will be able to edit a post with so many responses. I can make a public apology to you in this response list if you'd like.

In the future would you find the expression: 'The Method of the Noble Truths' more acceptable?
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:30 am It would usually simply be described as a "desire for becoming" in the teachings I've had that touch on this, and said desire could be towards perceived external objects, people, objects of the mind using the Four Frames of Reference, etc.

On the other end, something like "desire for the next thought to cease thought" is a desire for annihilation as characterized by the Pali Canon - a desire for non-being, in this case for a state without thought, or the desire for absence of thought.
You make an interesting point in terms of terminology.
I wonder how the Song of the Mind (Xin Ming) would be viewed in the Pali Canon?
As translated in Master Sheng Yen’s (2013) The Poetry of Enlightenment:
(3) …
Thoughts arise and pass away,
The preceding no different from the succeeding.
If the succeeding [i.e., follow on] thought does not arise,
The preceding thought cuts itself off.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:30 am Regardless of the actual words used, a foundational (literally) way of observing the mind, I am not sure I can't see the idea as unique or new beyond your personal wording.
As long as the reference deals with fading away desire for the arising of the next thought object, which lead to the cessation of thoughts, it will be of interest, no matter what particular terms are used. A 'general' intention to relinquish desire is not close enough to be considered a matching technique.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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Are you under the impression that the Buddha, (for instance in the Turning The Wheel of Dhamma Sutta) was somehow excluding thought or desire for thought, or desire for lack of thought in meditation from the second or third Noble Truths? Why would meditative experiences of grasping at thought, etc. not be a part of the understanding in the first place? Meditation is often said to be something like familiarization with reality, not a state where special rules apply, which would not apply to the mind in other circumstances.

The way this is parsed in the Pali stuff that I remember is a desire for becoming, or a desire for annihilation. If you learn Vipaysana from a good teacher, they cover observation of your aversion and attachment for thoughts, it is not an unusual topic, though I'd say it's definitely not a 'beginner' one, because just having enough stability/clarity to observe thought consistently without being pulled into it is a pre requisite.

The specific wording is unnecessary, unless you are looking to copyright it or something. Again it is not a unique concept. It is admirable that you discovered it on your own, but I swear, it is not new.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Supramundane »

No apology is needed! I'm not offended at all, please express yourself freely at all times. However, I do not think in this matter that it is a question of semantics. To call the four noble truths 'skillful means' is simply incorrect.

However, I'm not an expert, and I leave it to members of this forum who are more knowledgeable than myself to make a definitive judgment.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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I'm surprised a moderator hasn't brought this thread to an end, for at least three reasons.

1. Every single lineage advises practitioners to seek instruction from a teacher, and advises this incessantly. It is simply too easy to get confused about what texts are actually saying, and how your experience relates to what is described in texts, particularly when those texts are read in translation.
2. Trying to relate different lineages based on descriptions of their practices is a fool's errand. This has been discussed ad nauseam here. Pick your tradition and practice within it according to the instructions and framework of that lineage. Don't try to play Chess according to the rules of Go.
3. One has to be very careful in sharing insight gained from personal experiences. I've sat at the feet of a lot of well-respected Dharma teachers, but never have I heard a single one explain the Dharma in terms of what they think is a novel theory they've discovered in their own practice.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Supramundane »

I don't see why the thread should be closed actually, PeterC. OP has come forward in good faith and is honest about who he is and in expressing himself.

As a matter of principle, I don't think we should dampen someone who has such a natural and spontaneous enthusiasm for buddhism.

Do you see what I mean?
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Malcolm »

JimTempleman wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:47 am
In the future would you find the expression: 'The Method of the Noble Truths' more acceptable?
It’s not the four noble truths, it’s the four truths of nobles.

The only method in these four truths is the eightfold path.
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