The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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Supramundane
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Supramundane »

I believe this is the method that you are describing.

"One should not think of the previous mental realm.
if one thinks of the previous thought, the present thought and the latter thought, one's thoughts will be continuous without cease.
This is called fettered."

---Platform Sutra
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Supramundane
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Supramundane »

Don't be afraid to ask questions and continue your study. I'm always happy to chat with you.

Be advised, however, that -- without wanting to be condescending in any way -- it takes years to understand some of the concepts. My concept of sunyata, for instance, 5 years ago is nothing like my concept of it today.

I think what some of the members here are trying to convey is that these are very deep concepts that cannot be learned overnight without considerable reflection, study and proper guidance.

Remember too that, to complicate things, the terms we use are translations, and so the words that we use in our discussions are often no more than ghosts.

For example, you use the word cessation, and I think that your appreciation of the deep meaning of this word will mature over time.

---Cessation is perhaps not the negative you see it as being. Is it really a lack? Is it a state of non-thought?

---Perhaps it is simply non-duality. In which case, the cessation your method 'seeks' is already there.

The model you built up, I think, is very interesting. However, you may find more insight in knocking it down, if you know what I mean.
Metta
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JimTempleman
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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JimTempleman wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:16 am The advantage of Ki Testing is the ease with which direct feedback can be given.
If you are unfamiliar with either Ki Testing or Shin Shin Toitsu-do I would be happy to describe it in a posting on this forum.
Meido wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:30 am I am not unfamiliar with it. From a martial standpoint, it is very basic. If you are interested in this kind of thing, you should check out Kuroda Tetsuzan Sensei.
Yes, Ki Testing itself is very basic. That's what makes it a useful building block.
For those interested in Koichi Tohei Sensei's philosophy, he did a nice job of condensing it into his KI SAYINGS (Shokushu), which can be found here: https://novakiaikido.org/ki-sayings.php
As you can see, it has it's roots in Zen, but I cannot classify it further.

My favorite sentence from his sayings is:
"There is no conflict in the Absolute Universe, but there is conflict in the relative world."
I will endeavor to stir up less conflict.
Malcolm
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Malcolm »

Supramundane wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:26 pm
I think what some of the members here are trying to convey is that these are very deep concepts that cannot be learned overnight without considerable reflection, study and proper guidance.
Correct. Some of us have been studying and practicing dharma since the mid-eighties, under qualified teachers, and have even gone so far as to become proficient in one or more primary Buddhist languages, as well as earning formal degrees in the subject in Buddhist institutions.

The idea that someone, from books, with no education or training in dharma, can “discover” something overlooked for 2500 years is as preposterous as the notion that a five year old will be able to make any significant contribution to neural net research, let alone grasp anything more of it than the barest of rudiments. It’s actually insulting. Unfortunately, in this intellectual climate, such dilettantism all too common.

So, Jim, just as you would have us respect your expertise in the area in which you earned your PhD, you should respect ours. Frankly, you are still in kindergarten, as far as Dharma is concerned.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by JimTempleman »

Supramundane wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:05 pm I believe this is the method that you are describing.

"One should not think of the previous mental realm.
if one thinks of the previous thought, the present thought and the latter thought, one's thoughts will be continuous without cease.
This is called fettered."

---Platform Sutra
Yes. That is part of the last quote I included in the original post.
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Supramundane
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Supramundane »

JimTempleman wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:03 pm
Supramundane wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:05 pm I believe this is the method that you are describing.

"One should not think of the previous mental realm.
if one thinks of the previous thought, the present thought and the latter thought, one's thoughts will be continuous without cease.
This is called fettered."

---Platform Sutra
Yes. That is part of the last quote I included in the original post.
Ooo quite right.
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Supramundane
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Supramundane »

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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by JimTempleman »

Supramundane wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:26 pm Don't be afraid to ask questions and continue your study. I'm always happy to chat with you.
Thank you. I truly appreciate your support.
Supramundane wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:26 pm For example, you use the word cessation, and I think that your appreciation of the deep meaning of this word will mature over time.

---Cessation is perhaps not the negative you see it as being. Is it really a lack? Is it a state of non-thought?

---Perhaps it is simply non-duality. In which case, the cessation your method 'seeks' is already there.
I would say that cessation exposes sunyata, which is interdependent co-arising, which is illumination.
Shohaku Okumura uses the term "network of interdependent origination" in his book Realizing Genjokoan. He defines it as:
The absolute, total, or universal reality of interconnectedness. The term is similar to Indra’s Net, an analogy used in Mahayana Buddhism in which all things of the universe are depicted as knots in the limitless net of reality.
I call that a 'clue.'
Interdependent co-arising seem to be the enormous 'living root' that affords non-dual awareness.
Supramundane wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:26 pm The model you built up, I think, is very interesting. However, you may find more insight in knocking it down, if you know what I mean.
Metta
That's what I expected to happen. I figured I could learn from my mistakes. I tried to describe it as a system with enough 'legs' to make it hard to ignore or simply brush aside.
Turns out that most respondents don't want to touch its content with a hundred foot pole.

Your quote from the Platform Sutra, and the the Song of the Mind (Xin Ming), and even Dogen's Fukanzazengi are all suggestive of the method, but they all stop short of spelling it out. Yes cease thought, but how? Maybe by going back to first principles. Is that such a reach?
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Supramundane
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Supramundane »

Exactly! I too am stumped sometimes. Intellectually, I understand, but implementation is much more difficult and perhaps can only be transmitted in the crucible of the teacher-student dynamic.

If there was a simple cookbook to reach enlightenment, then things would be much easier, wouldn't they? (But no fun:))

You mentioned earlier the Śūrangama Sūtra ; there is a step-by-step method therein based on sound.
Do you know the one I mean?
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Supramundane
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Supramundane »

Ceasing thoughts is perhaps not what is meant. One of the first things a meditation teacher will guide you through are certain realizations. One of the first ones is that thoughts cannot be stopped .... no one will tell you to freeze your thoughts or to stop your thoughts. The dilution of personal ego into the light of pure awareness is like a fish traveling into the stream, letting itself being taken into the delta. But this cannot be done by stopping thoughts. Samsara are the waves on the ocean. How can we stop the waves on the ocean?

Which school appeals to most? A good start perhaps would be to choose a tradition.
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Supramundane
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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That's what I expected to happen. I figured I could learn from my mistakes. I tried to describe it as a system with enough 'legs' to make it hard to ignore or simply brush aside.

That's not what I meant. I didn't mean correcting errors, but I was referring to analysis. Deep analysis. Deconstructing and acquiring a deep knowledge.
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JimTempleman
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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In response to this:
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 pm So yeah, you are most certainly claiming to teach people something, and I would not say it is a weak sense other than trying to paper it over.
I said this:
If anything I'd like to teach people to read & respond to what is actually written.
Then In response to this:
PeterC wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:34 am 2. Trying to relate different lineages based on descriptions of their practices is a fool's errand. This has been discussed ad nauseam here. Pick your tradition and practice within it according to the instructions and framework of that lineage. Don't try to play Chess according to the rules of Go.
I said this:
... When you look back at the history of the development of Buddhism in, say China, where do you see this kind of segregation taking place? I guess Dogen should have stayed in Japan.
So I committed the same kind of indirection, that I said I wanted to avoid.
I was unsure if PeterC was as adamant about what he was saying as he appeared to be.
Turns out he was. And to be honest, I respect & value his viewpoint a great deal (even it I do not entirely share it). His view gives me a different way of looking at the development of Buddhism that probably makes more sense that how I was thinking about it! (Still letting it seep in.)
Sorry for the early head-butting.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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JimTempleman wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:46 pm
That's what I expected to happen. I figured I could learn from my mistakes. I tried to describe it as a system with enough 'legs' to make it hard to ignore or simply brush aside.

Turns out that most respondents don't want to touch its content with a hundred foot pole.
Just so, why do you think that might be?
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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Supramundane wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:57 pm You mentioned earlier the Śūrangama Sūtra ; there is a step-by-step method therein based on sound.
Do you know the one I mean?
Yes. My take on matters is that I chose Thought as the guest, rather than Sound.
I did this because the early version of Dogen's Fukanzazengi recommends:
Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it; as soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish. If you remain for a long period forgetful of objects, you will naturally become unified. This is the essential art of zazen. Zazen is the is the dharma gate of great ease and joy.
And Soto Zen is more available in the States.

You wouldn't happen to be a teacher, by any chance?
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Supramundane »

Not by any stretch:)

Just a normal Joe.

Take another look at the sound method. I think there is also a famous work on it which expands upon it, and it may give you the step-by-step instructions you're looking for. I will try to dig it up.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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JimTempleman wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:46 pm
Shohaku Okumura uses the term "network of interdependent origination" in his book Realizing Genjokoan. He defines it as:
The absolute, total, or universal reality of interconnectedness.
This is not the meaning of the term "pratītyasamutpāda." Dependent origination is not mutual or inter- dependence.

In Buddhadharma, there are three schemes of causation: general causation is covered under the the six causes and the four conditions. One of those causes is called kāraṇahetu, which means generative cause, it is also called the dominant condition. What is a generative cause? It means that all things are causes of all other things apart from themselves. It is therefore, not an efficient cause, but rather, a formal cause. You can read about these six causes and four conditions in Abhidharma.

The next causal scheme is dependent origination. The Buddha taught that dependent origination does not apply to inanimate things, only to living beings. The general theory is "Where that exists, then this exists. From the arising of that, this arises." The specific theory is the twelve limbs, which have four presentations: static, serial, momentary, simultaneous.

The final theory of causation is karma and its results.
Interdependent co-arising seem to be the enormous 'living root' that affords non-dual awareness.
Nondual is quite buzzword these days. Most people, including you, do not understand what the term "advaya" means in Buddhadharma. Now there is a connection between dependent origination and nonduality in Buddhadharma, but it has nothing to do with nondual awareness, because there is no such thing.
Turns out that most respondents don't want to touch its content with a hundred foot pole.
If someone wrote a post on neural net theory, which was predicated on insufficient learning, would you "touch its contents," or would you tell that person to go to school and get it right?
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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When I was a young monk, I practiced Chan Buddhism by myself in a graveyard for ten years and later in a mountain cave for an additional two years. I did not have a teacher to guide me, but—propelled by devotion—I followed a method of practice that Bodhisattva Guanyin, also known as Avalokiteshvara, teaches in the Śurangāma Sutra. This method, called Perfect Penetration through Hearing, relies not on any words or concepts but on listening to silence.

https://wikkorg.wordpress.com/2021/07/0 ... to-silence/

 
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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Supramundane wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:54 pm When I was a young monk, I practiced Chan Buddhism by myself in a graveyard for ten years and later in a mountain cave for an additional two years. I did not have a teacher to guide me, but—propelled by devotion—I followed a method of practice that Bodhisattva Guanyin, also known as Avalokiteshvara, teaches in the Śurangāma Sutra. This method, called Perfect Penetration through Hearing, relies not on any words or concepts but on listening to silence.

https://wikkorg.wordpress.com/2021/07/0 ... to-silence/

 
He was ordained as a novice monk in 1973 at the age of 25 under Venerable Master Hsing Yun at Fo Guang Shan, and entered Tsung Lin Buddhist College at the same time.[2] The next year, he went to a mountainous area of Taipei city, Waishuanghsi(外雙溪), and meditated there for over eighteen hours a day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsin_Tao


So, had teachers and certainly some instructions.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

Post by Supramundane »

Yes of course. I totally agree that a teacher is a must.
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Re: The Noble Truths as Skillful Means

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JimTempleman wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:46 pm Turns out that most respondents don't want to touch its content with a hundred foot pole.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:50 pm If someone wrote a post on neural net theory, which was predicated on insufficient learning, would you "touch its contents," or would you tell that person to go to school and get it right?
Generally what I would do (have done as a teacher) is to give them a rough sketch of why it wouldn't work. If it were close enough to salvage I'd tell them how to fix it, without dictating all the details. The problem is that with computer models the results are viewed objectively. With meditation it's one's own experience which cannot be directly shared with others (except transmission, so I've heard). Subjective matters are always at least 10x more difficult to gauge. (& I've done a lot of 'usability' testing).

I cannot fault you're responses to me. It's clear that you're giving me what you believe I need to hear. I thank you for that. I wish you the best in your studies.
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