Loss of focus

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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carmar
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Loss of focus

Post by carmar »

Greetings, all.

I'm having focus issues with trying to meditate and hoping your advice can help me. Given the difference between 'trying to meditate' and 'meditate', I will try to describe my situation.

I have been trying to meditate, daily, for 4-5 years now. Some days I succeed in meditating. I have set aside 4 hours/day toward trying to meditate. I do so in single hour increments spread through the day whenever I have time. This is done sitting on a chair.

When I first learned about meditation, it was through focusing on breath at the nostrils. Over the years, of my own volition, my focus went to the belly (a la adham pranayama). I learned about the Bhagavad Gita's suggestions to point the eyeballs toward either tip of nose or between the eyebrows. Trying the Gita's suggestions, I noticed that my focus was more with feel/sense of those facial areas rather than with my eyeballs remaining pointed in those directions.
**(I understand that this is a Buddhist forum - that is the majority of my journey in meditation. I merely wish to provide a complete picture of my experience by explaining my Gita-suggested meditation).

I find that given the methods I have tried, I'm most comfortable with focus on breathing either at the nose or at the belly - I keep my eyes straight and closed but I don't dwell on eye positioning. But it appears to me that my mind may be wandering more now than a couple of years ago. I find myself oscillating between focusing on the nose for a month and then moving to the belly for the next month. The reason being that when I start either the nose or belly method, my focus is good for a few weeks, and then subsides. When I switch to the other method, my focus is again good for a few weeks. And rinse and repeat. Through my reading of various articles on meditation, I got the impression that the object of focus should not matter, only the focus matters. Regardless, I think I may have a problem with my approach.

I thank you for your time and welcome your advice.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Have you talked to an eye doctor?
EMPTIFUL.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I think, “succeed in meditating” is the issue.
What is it that you are trying to “succeed” in doing?”
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Are you practicing with feedback from a teacher? Honestly if you aren't, I am not sure that four hour sessions make a lot of sense, particularly if you are having issues that relate to fundamental meditation such as loss of focus. It's also not entirely clear what "loss of focus" means to you. Do you discurseive thoughts come back gradually, suddenly, or? Thoughts returning as you relax your focus is a normal part of meditation.

My personal experience is that it is beneficial to simply break things into much smaller sessions, I.e. break your hour sessions into four 15 minute chunks, or even 12 5 minute sessions, etc.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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carmar
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by carmar »

Thank you both for your responses.

@PadmaVonSamba: I'd like to succeed in levitating. ;)
Jokes aside, I'd like to succeed in reducing mind wandering.

@Johnny Dangerous: No, I don't have a teacher and let us assume that getting one is not an option for the next several years.
When I started daily attempts at meditating, I started with 15 minutes, then 30 minutes, then 1 hour, then 2 hours, then 3, and now 4 hours. The increase was gradual, over 5 years. I felt I made progress, my mind wandering feels a lot less than when I first started. I extended the time periods because I felt that I need to give my mind sufficient time to calm down. Also, I found trying to meditate a lot better way to spend my free time than anything else I can come up with.
About a couple of years ago, I could maintain focus on my breath for longer periods without a thought taking me off on a tangent. Or at least that was my anecdotal experience. For a year or so, it seems to me that I have more frequent moments of returning the mind to the breath. Trying to compare to when I first began meditating - those were explosions of thoughts. But since then, it has seemed like thoughts "sneaking away" my attention - with the past year or so having a lot more frequent "sneaking". Sorry, I don't know if my description helps.
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JimTempleman
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by JimTempleman »

4 hours a day in single hour increments is a lot of meditation. I would be tempted to shorten the duration down to 30-minute periods and see how that effects focus.
carmar wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:43 pm But it appears to me that my mind may be wandering more now than a couple of years ago.
The clarity and reliability of being aware that you are maintaining or loosing focus is at least as important as maintaining focus. So notice how you are doing in that, as well.
carmar wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:43 pm This is done sitting on a chair.
Does your chair have a back, and do you rest your back on it?

I find meditating in a chair more difficult than on a pillow because it tempts me to into a restful posture, where I can get drowsy. How do you deal with that over such long periods of practice?
carmar
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by carmar »

Thanks, Jim.
Seems worth a try to go with Johnny's and your advice to break some of the hours further into 30 minute periods and see if that improves it.

Yes, it could also be that I wasn't as aware of my focus loss before and am becoming more aware of it now.

Yes, I too felt drowsy when anything is pressed against my back. I used to do a mix between either a pile of cushions, or chair, or occasionally lying in bed. My issue was that doing various forms of free sitting (mostly half lotus, some siddhasana were easiest for me) led to me invariably slouching which eventually forced me to move to chairs with backs.
It took about 2 years, maybe 3, to overcome the drowsiness. I still get some drowsiness if I do lying meditation, so I don't do it that often and usually do it only in the morning. But in sum, for me it came down to slowly building up resistance to drowsiness.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

You might want to check out this book,
Essentials of Mahamudra by Thrangu Rinpoche.
While it’s not really an instruction manual, the author gives a very clear description of how to simply let the mind rest in the natural state.

There is only so far one can go with shamatha, which is not to say that one should stop regular practicing of it (Keep up with regular practice!) but what I mean is, once you can settle the mind, “tame the monkey” as they say, then it might (or might not) be when you take it a bit further.
This really is something that one should discuss with their teacher. But as this is apparently not an option for you, then again, I would recommend reading/studying this book. It will at least help you to look at distractions, and to determine whether you need to avoid them or not at this point, or whether you can simply observe distractions coming and going, observing them as ‘play of the mind’ but without you yourself actually becoming distracted in the process:
https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/ ... 0861713714

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

carmar wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:06 am Thank you both for your responses.

@PadmaVonSamba: I'd like to succeed in levitating. ;)
Jokes aside, I'd like to succeed in reducing mind wandering.

@Johnny Dangerous: No, I don't have a teacher and let us assume that getting one is not an option for the next several years.
When I started daily attempts at meditating, I started with 15 minutes, then 30 minutes, then 1 hour, then 2 hours, then 3, and now 4 hours. The increase was gradual, over 5 years. I felt I made progress, my mind wandering feels a lot less than when I first started. I extended the time periods because I felt that I need to give my mind sufficient time to calm down. Also, I found trying to meditate a lot better way to spend my free time than anything else I can come up with.
About a couple of years ago, I could maintain focus on my breath for longer periods without a thought taking me off on a tangent. Or at least that was my anecdotal experience. For a year or so, it seems to me that I have more frequent moments of returning the mind to the breath. Trying to compare to when I first began meditating - those were explosions of thoughts. But since then, it has seemed like thoughts "sneaking away" my attention - with the past year or so having a lot more frequent "sneaking". Sorry, I don't know if my description helps.
Hmm, the way it normally works is that you follow a particular set of teachings, and there is sort of a roadmap, including signs and indications that things are going well or not, advice with known problems, etc.

If you don't have that, can I ask, why exactly are you doing four hours of shamatha a day? Do you do other practices too? Prayers, etc.? Is there something about Shamatha in particular that you think is benefiting you such that you need four hours a day of it?

At least in Buddhist traditions, if you are doing concentrated meditation to that degree, it is for fairly specific purposes, and is not an end of and within itself, in a gradual path it is a preparatory step that eventually melds with Vipaysana. So, asking about this on a Buddhist forum is a somewhat loaded question, because we need to understand how this meditation actually fits into your spiritual path.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
carmar
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by carmar »

@Padma - You may have nailed it. Yes, I have read about Vipassana being recommended in addition to Samatha. A while back, I was interested in Mahasi Sayadaw's approach https://mahasivipassana.com/docs/practi ... -practice/ but didn't get around to practising it, until this morning. Thanks to your observation, I tried it during today's morning session. It does appear to create a clarity that I had lacked, thus far. I will monitor.


@Johnny - I will try to answer your question by providing my background.
I have a tendency to be reclusive. Thus, preferring reading over other options (gatherings, classes, etc) of learning. That said, my reading is scattered and nowhere near the level of the folks on this forum, and I am very grateful to you all for sharing your wisdom.
My interest in Buddhism started by reading about it. After my interest grew in Buddhism, I was formally inducted (took vows as a layperson) at https://www.chancenter.org/en/ . I did participate in one meditation sitting with a monk - my goal was to verify my general understanding of whether I was meditating correctly or was way off base.

My interest grew more on the meditation side than on the philosophies. This naturally led to my comparing with other meditative practices, such as with Hindus and Jains, given that meditation/yoga predates all three religions.

I am a yogi. I no longer prescribe to any religion/belief but still lean toward Buddhism. I do not pray/rituals, etc. My long term goal is happiness through reduction of mind wandering. I don't believe I will make anywhere near nirvana/moksha. But I intend to keep increasing my commitment to meditation because it keeps me happy.
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

carmar wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:10 pm @Padma - You may have nailed it. Yes, I have read about Vipassana being recommended in addition to Samatha. A while back, I was interested in Mahasi Sayadaw's approach https://mahasivipassana.com/docs/practi ... -practice/ but didn't get around to practising it, until this morning. Thanks to your observation, I tried it during today's morning session. It does appear to create a clarity that I had lacked, thus far. I will monitor.


@Johnny - I will try to answer your question by providing my background.
I have a tendency to be reclusive. Thus, preferring reading over other options (gatherings, classes, etc) of learning. That said, my reading is scattered and nowhere near the level of the folks on this forum, and I am very grateful to you all for sharing your wisdom.
My interest in Buddhism started by reading about it. After my interest grew in Buddhism, I was formally inducted (took vows as a layperson) at https://www.chancenter.org/en/ . I did participate in one meditation sitting with a monk - my goal was to verify my general understanding of whether I was meditating correctly or was way off base.

My interest grew more on the meditation side than on the philosophies. This naturally led to my comparing with other meditative practices, such as with Hindus and Jains, given that meditation/yoga predates all three religions.

I am a yogi. I no longer prescribe to any religion/belief but still lean toward Buddhism. I do not pray/rituals, etc. My long term goal is happiness through reduction of mind wandering. I don't believe I will make anywhere near nirvana/moksha. But I intend to keep increasing my commitment to meditation because it keeps me happy.
Thanks.

Well, I would say that (purely from a Buddhist perspective on meditation) you probably need to sort the purpose behind so much Shamatha meditation in order to move forward. At least with the teachers I have had that teach Shamatha/Vipaysana in a gradual manner, they would have long ago introduced Vipaysana to you, and had you doing that along with your Shamatha practice, ideally as one.

Being able so sustain four hours a day of Shamatha practice is significant (I'm impressed, I sure can't do that), but it's a means to an end in Buddhist terms, and there are lots of stories about ...basically diminishing returns for people who focus on Shamatha exclusively. So, this is why some kind of actual program or guidance or even a teacher might be a good idea.

in short, continuing to focus exclusively on concentrated medition to the exclusion of other stuff because it makes you happy would be seen as a deviation from proper practice in many Buddhist schools, or as simply as a good preparation for other practices. So the issue may be that it's simply time to learn/do something new now.

That's of course just my own experiences.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Virtue: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... index.html

And an intention, honed again and again, "I will benefit others": https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/how-live-bodhicitta
Namu Amida Butsu
carmar
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by carmar »

@Johnny: Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. The diminishing returns effect was also my suspicion which led to my OP.

I apologize for using the forum for my selfish reasons, more so since I was well aware that it is a Buddhist forum and still asked my questions. Again, I am very thankful that you all still indulged me in spite of my out-of-scope questions, as well as provided me with two potential solutions - Vipassana and, for the backburner, changing meditative frequency and duration.

I will try and monitor this thread for any further discussions. I will also try and report back on my Vipassana results - although in my experience it has taken me at least 6 months to a year before I'm able to register the minutest benefit from any change in practice. So, it may be a while at least as far as my reporting back of the Vipassana results.
PeterC
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by PeterC »

With the exception of some Theravedans who have debatable ideas about the Jhanas, for almost all Buddhist schools, shamatha is not an end in itself and is generally only cultivated up to the point where you have enough stability to do other things. However the 'other things' in general require more instruction and personalized advice. Shamatha you can pretty much learn from a book (if you're patient and diligent, which it sounds like you are).

For most questions in this forum, the correct answer is usually: ask your teacher, or if you don't have one, make contact with one you trust. Your question here is not an exception to that general rule.
carmar
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Re: Loss of focus

Post by carmar »

Thank you.
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