Highest form of meditation?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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Astus
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Astus »

Seitaka wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:00 pm The answer is simple, and not sectarian at all, since it is mentioned in every sūtra and tantra that discusses Buddha's awakening.

The highest meditation is Vajropama Samadhi, since only it has the ability to obliterate all traces of the two obscurations in their entirety.
But what is the specific methodology or meditative practice by which such a samadhi can be attained? Obviously following the Buddhist path as a whole, but any particular practice which was seen as especially effective in attaining such?
There is a very nice sutra on that topic: Sūtra of the Vajra Samādhi, or in another translation: The Vajrasamadhi Sutra.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

Seitaka wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:00 pm The answer is simple, and not sectarian at all, since it is mentioned in every sūtra and tantra that discusses Buddha's awakening.

The highest meditation is Vajropama Samadhi, since only it has the ability to obliterate all traces of the two obscurations in their entirety.
But what is the specific methodology or meditative practice by which such a samadhi can be attained? Obviously following the Buddhist path as a whole, but any particular practice which was seen as especially effective in attaining such?
Take your pick. But they all involved varying approaches to śamatha and vipaśyanā. They all require prajñā. So, best to cultivate that.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:00 pm The answer is simple, and not sectarian at all, since it is mentioned in every sūtra and tantra that discusses Buddha's awakening.

The highest meditation is Vajropama Samadhi, since only it has the ability to obliterate all traces of the two obscurations in their entirety.
From Buddhistdoor.net, only the following is explained:

"vajropama-samādhi
'Diamond-like concentration', so called because, like a diamond that can cut through all things, it is the last stage in the abandonment of defilements; whatever defilements that have remained are all abandoned in this samādhi."

Without going to too much trouble, can you kindly provide your own take on this term, or point to a robust internet-accessible reference, please? (I'm sure the lead-up this stage is important, too.) Thank you.
Vajropama-samādhi is the nirvikalpa samādhi of an ārya, someone who has realized emptiness already. Ordinary nirvikalpa samādhi merely leads to birth in the realm of unconscious devas.
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Astus
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

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Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:34 pmVajropama-samādhi is the nirvikalpa samādhi of an ārya, someone who has realized emptiness already. Ordinary nirvikalpa samādhi merely leads to birth in the realm of unconscious devas.
Would you perhaps have some sources in mind for the above conenction between nirvikalpa and vajropama samadhi? I couldn't find much on nirvikalpa samādhi by a search of various possible translations (無分別三昧/三摩地/定), unless you meant nirvikalpa jñāna (無分別智). As for the samadhi leading to the heaven of unconsciousness (無想天), that's usually called asaṃjñi samāpatti (無想定).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:59 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:34 pmVajropama-samādhi is the nirvikalpa samādhi of an ārya, someone who has realized emptiness already. Ordinary nirvikalpa samādhi merely leads to birth in the realm of unconscious devas.
Would you perhaps have some sources in mind for the above conenction between nirvikalpa and vajropama samadhi? I couldn't find much on nirvikalpa samādhi by a search of various possible translations (無分別三昧/三摩地/定), unless you meant nirvikalpa jñāna (無分別智). As for the samadhi leading to the heaven of unconsciousness (無想天), that's usually called asaṃjñi samāpatti (無想定).
It is also called nirodhasamapatti. If a commoner attains this, it is asaṃjñi samāpatti.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:23 pm
Astus wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:59 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:34 pmVajropama-samādhi is the nirvikalpa samādhi of an ārya, someone who has realized emptiness already. Ordinary nirvikalpa samādhi merely leads to birth in the realm of unconscious devas.
Would you perhaps have some sources in mind for the above conenction between nirvikalpa and vajropama samadhi? I couldn't find much on nirvikalpa samādhi by a search of various possible translations (無分別三昧/三摩地/定), unless you meant nirvikalpa jñāna (無分別智). As for the samadhi leading to the heaven of unconsciousness (無想天), that's usually called asaṃjñi samāpatti (無想定).
It is also called nirodhasamapatti. If a commoner attains this, it is asaṃjñi samāpatti.
Thank you. Most helpful, ultimately.

As a practicing Zen Buddhist, I must admit I was unfamiliar with the term Nirodha-Samapatti (Pāli, attainment of cessation), defined online, in the first paragraph of a Tibetan dictionary as "Ninth level of trance which was added to the scheme of the eight trances (dhyāna). In this ninth stage, all mental activity is suspended and bodily functions are greatly attenuated. The subject remains in a state of suspended animation in which it is difficult to detect any vital signs. In due course the meditator emerges spontaneously from this condition. Stories are told of monks who remained in this state while there was great tumult around them, even to the extent of being absorbed in trance in the middle of a village that was on fire. The state is also known as ‘the cessation of ideation and feeling’ (Pāli, saññā-vedayita-nirodha)."

I found the reference to a commoner personally inspiring
Seitaka wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:28 pm Which in your experience or according to your studies of Buddhism is the highest or most powerful form of meditation or practice?
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:00 pm The highest meditation is Vajropama Samadhi, since only it has the ability to obliterate all traces of the two obscurations in their entirety.
In parsing the original question, the mistake is that meditation is a subset of practice, not separate. Vajropama Samadhi is quite clearly a stage attainment. How does it help liberate all sentient beings? Unless this is spelled out and actualized in right practice (on behalf of all sentient beings), I would contend that it is not the highest or most powerful form of practice. The problem, as I see it: it is a static individual achievement. Walking around with that medal pinned to one's chest means nothing.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:38 am
In parsing the original question, the mistake is that meditation is a subset of practice, not separate. Vajropama Samadhi is quite clearly a stage attainment. How does it help liberate all sentient beings? Unless this is spelled out and actualized in right practice (on behalf of all sentient beings), I would contend that it is not the highest or most powerful form of practice. The problem, as I see it: it is a static individual achievement. Walking around with that medal pinned to one's chest means nothing.
It can’t be attained without Mahayana bodhicitta. One doesn’t need this samadhi to attain arhatship. And it’s force in Hinayana practitioners is too weak to burn away all obscuration. I never said it was insight. Buddhahood itself is ultimately driven by wisdom, not method. But Vajropama samadhi is indispensable for buddhahood.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:01 am But Vajropama samadhi is indispensable for buddhahood.
Which is a static achievement not necessarily related to the liberation of all sentient beings, thus not the highest or most powerful practice, unless actualized.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:15 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:01 am But Vajropama samadhi is indispensable for buddhahood.
Which is a static achievement not necessarily related to the liberation of all sentient beings, thus not the highest or most powerful practice, unless actualized.
You can’t actualize it until you are on the verge of buddhahood, that is the point. And it’s not static at all. Vajropamasamadhi is the fire of ultimate jnana. It’s the heat of the fire of wisdom.

The method by which one arrives there is not that important, the point is arriving there.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:26 am
reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:15 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:01 am But Vajropama samadhi is indispensable for buddhahood.
Which is a static achievement not necessarily related to the liberation of all sentient beings, thus not the highest or most powerful practice, unless actualized.
You can’t actualize it until you are on the verge of buddhahood, that is the point.
Yes indeed. Vajropama samadhi is not the "highest and most powerful practice". It is just a stage. Buddahood, in the liberation of all sentient beings, is.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:03 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:26 am
reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:15 am
Which is a static achievement not necessarily related to the liberation of all sentient beings, thus not the highest or most powerful practice, unless actualized.
You can’t actualize it until you are on the verge of buddhahood, that is the point.
Yes indeed. Vajropama samadhi is not the "highest and most powerful practice". It is just a stage. Buddahood, in the liberation of all sentient beings, is.
It’s definitely the highest and most powerful samadhi involved in aiding sentient beings, it’s not merely a “stage.” Without it the there would be no ability aid all sentient beings with absolute impartiality.

I mean, it all depends on whether or not one thinks buddhahood is the most precious thing ever. I do, YMMV.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by haha »

There are many different ways to present it. Which is the best? Whichever method that one has attained the particular result is the best for oneself. However, all principles are included in samatha and vipasyana (i.e. their union) and it is already said above.

Here is another presentation. When Manjushri asked Tathagata about how to get enlightenment/buddhahood quickly or suddenly. The response was that meditating on Single Samadhi/Prajnaparamita directly; from another sutra, meditating on essence directly. So, meditating in the essence might be the highest form of meditation.

According to some interpretation (of yogacarin), one cuts two obscuration by vajropamasamadhi but one still has to realize bhutatathata.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

haha wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:31 am one still has to realize bhutatathata.
That is realized on the first bhumi.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:32 am
reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:03 am Yes indeed. Vajropama samadhi is not the "highest and most powerful practice". It is just a stage. Buddahood, in the liberation of all sentient beings, is.
It’s definitely the highest and most powerful samadhi involved in aiding sentient beings, it’s not merely a “stage.” Without it the there would be no ability aid all sentient beings with absolute impartiality.
Stages, first, last or somewhere in the middle, are not necessarily "merely" mere. For instance: End Stage.

I couldn't find the term Vajropama samapatti here: http://www.tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia. ... arch&go=Go

(I already quoted a partial definition of Nirodha Samapatti as a "stage", as described upthread and here: http://www.tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia. ... -Samapatti )

In terms of "highest form of . . practice" (vs. highest form of samadhi), I would say it is actualizing the "ability [to] aid all sentient beings with absolute impartiality." See, for example, any decent discussion of the last of the Ten Ox-herding Pictures.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:20 pm

In terms of "highest form of . . practice" (vs. highest form of samadhi), I would say it is actualizing the "ability [to] aid all sentient beings with absolute impartiality." See, for example, any decent discussion of the last of the Ten Ox-herding Pictures.
The question was not the highest form of practice, that is clearly the bodhisattva yāna in toto.

The question was, what is the highest form of meditation, by which people generally mean some kind of meditative absorption (samapatti) or samadhi. I answered that question very precisely.

You are answering a question different than the one that was asked.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:20 pm
I couldn't find the term Vajropama samapatti here: http://www.tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia. ... arch&go=Go
This is not a reliable source of information.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:04 pm
The question was not the highest form of practice, that is clearly the bodhisattva yāna in toto.

The question was, what is the highest form of meditation, by which people generally mean some kind of meditative absorption (samapatti) or samadhi. I answered that question very precisely.

You are answering a question different than the one that was asked.
Seitaka wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:28 pm Which in your experience or according to your studies of Buddhism is the highest or most powerful form of meditation or practice?
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by haha »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:16 pm
haha wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:31 am one still has to realize bhutatathata.
That is realized on the first bhumi.
According to interpretation of thirty-verses, it is the bhutatathata related with grahya and grahaka (i.e. for first bhumi / dharsanamarga). In vajropamasamadhi, it means bhutatathata related with asrayaparavritti. They have categorized understanding of the bhutatathata while progressing in the path.

From another presentation according to Misrakabhidharmahridayasastra, the Knowledge of Extinction (ksayajnana) and the Knowledge of Non-Arising (anutpadajnana) proceed after vajropamasamadhi.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

haha wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 2:16 pm
haha wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:31 am one still has to realize bhutatathata.
That is realized on the first bhumi.
According to interpretation of thirty-verses, it is the bhutatathata related with grahya and grahaka (i.e. for first bhumi / dharsanamarga). In vajropamasamadhi, it means bhutatathata related with asrayaparavritti. They have categorized understanding of the bhutatathata while progressing in the path.

From another presentation according to Misrakabhidharmahridayasastra, the Knowledge of Extinction (ksayajnana) and the Knowledge of Non-Arising (anutpadajnana) proceed after vajropamasamadhi.
Perhaps, but there is no actual difference in the object being realized.
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:04 pm
The question was not the highest form of practice, that is clearly the bodhisattva yāna in toto.

The question was, what is the highest form of meditation, by which people generally mean some kind of meditative absorption (samapatti) or samadhi. I answered that question very precisely.

You are answering a question different than the one that was asked.
Seitaka wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:28 pm Which in your experience or according to your studies of Buddhism is the highest or most powerful form of meditation or practice?
My point still stands.
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