Highest form of meditation?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
reiun
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:22 am
reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:04 pm
The question was not the highest form of practice, that is clearly the bodhisattva yāna in toto.

The question was, what is the highest form of meditation, by which people generally mean some kind of meditative absorption (samapatti) or samadhi. I answered that question very precisely.

You are answering a question different than the one that was asked.
Seitaka wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:28 pm Which in your experience or according to your studies of Buddhism is the highest or most powerful form of meditation or practice?
My point still stands.
There is no healthy reason evident to belabor this. You say "meditation" was the question, vs "meditation or practice" per Seitaka. Just try to let it go.
Jesse
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Jesse »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:06 pm
reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:20 pm
I couldn't find the term Vajropama samapatti here: http://www.tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia. ... arch&go=Go
This is not a reliable source of information.
Would you mind linking to a page, or book that contains information about it? I am simply curious.
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Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:57 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:22 am
reiun wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:19 pm

My point still stands.
There is no healthy reason evident to belabor this. You say "meditation" was the question, vs "meditation or practice" per Seitaka. Just try to let it go.
The point is that there is a point on which all Mahayana schools agree: in order to attain buddhahood, one has to eradicate all taints. If one does not do this, even if one's practice is impartial compassion which benefits sentient beings, even if one's wisdom is that of a tenth stage bodhisattva, it is still contaminated, so not the highest.
reiun
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:54 pm
reiun wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:57 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:22 am

My point still stands.
There is no healthy reason evident to belabor this. You say "meditation" was the question, vs "meditation or practice" per Seitaka. Just try to let it go.
The point is that there is a point on which all Mahayana schools agree: in order to attain buddhahood, one has to eradicate all taints. If one does not do this, even if one's practice is impartial compassion which benefits sentient beings, even if one's wisdom is that of a tenth stage bodhisattva, it is still contaminated, so not the highest.
At Dai Bosatsu Zendo one of our prayers included the phrase "in order to continue our practice for all beings". This is the reason for attaining buddhahood, to make this practice the highest. It is just a step. There can be no higher purpose than to practice on behalf of others, to dedicate it to the liberation of all beings. As Heart Sutra says, "attainment too is sunyata".
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:54 pm
reiun wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:57 am

There is no healthy reason evident to belabor this. You say "meditation" was the question, vs "meditation or practice" per Seitaka. Just try to let it go.
The point is that there is a point on which all Mahayana schools agree: in order to attain buddhahood, one has to eradicate all taints. If one does not do this, even if one's practice is impartial compassion which benefits sentient beings, even if one's wisdom is that of a tenth stage bodhisattva, it is still contaminated, so not the highest.
At Dai Bosatsu Zendo one of our prayers included the phrase "in order to continue our practice for all beings". This is the reason for attaining buddhahood, to make this practice the highest. It is just a step. There can be no higher purpose than to practice on behalf of others, to dedicate it to the liberation of all beings. As Heart Sutra says, "attainment too is sunyata".
And no one does that practice better than a buddha. So, still the attainment of buddhahood is the highest practice, along with its attendant samadhis and so on. It’s it impossible attain buddhahood in absence of Mahayana bodhicitta.
reiun
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:22 pm
reiun wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:31 pm At Dai Bosatsu Zendo one of our prayers included the phrase "in order to continue our practice for all beings". This is the reason for attaining buddhahood, to make this practice the highest. It is just a step. There can be no higher purpose than to practice on behalf of others, to dedicate it to the liberation of all beings. As Heart Sutra says, "attainment too is sunyata".
And no one does that practice better than a buddha. So, still the attainment of buddhahood is the highest practice, along with its attendant samadhis and so on. . .
The highest practice is the actualization of the attainment of buddhahood, not the attainment itself. This is (literally) beautifully illustrated in the series of Ten Ox-herding Pictures. In the ninth stage, a thorough purification is carried out, relevant to the attainment you speak of. But the tenth stage is "Entering the Marketplace With Helping Hands", in which the freedom of positive samadhi is active, on behalf of all beings.
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:59 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:22 pm
reiun wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:31 pm At Dai Bosatsu Zendo one of our prayers included the phrase "in order to continue our practice for all beings". This is the reason for attaining buddhahood, to make this practice the highest. It is just a step. There can be no higher purpose than to practice on behalf of others, to dedicate it to the liberation of all beings. As Heart Sutra says, "attainment too is sunyata".
And no one does that practice better than a buddha. So, still the attainment of buddhahood is the highest practice, along with its attendant samadhis and so on. . .
The highest practice is the actualization of the attainment of buddhahood, not the attainment itself.
You mean once you have the attainment you stop practicing it? That does not correspond to how I understand buddhahood. YMMV.
reiun
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:50 am
reiun wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:59 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:22 pm

And no one does that practice better than a buddha. So, still the attainment of buddhahood is the highest practice, along with its attendant samadhis and so on. . .
The highest practice is the actualization of the attainment of buddhahood, not the attainment itself.
You mean once you have the attainment you stop practicing it? That does not correspond to how I understand buddhahood. YMMV.
I have no idea how you would legitimately conclude that. Actualization of attainment is practice.
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:05 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:50 am
reiun wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:59 pm
The highest practice is the actualization of the attainment of buddhahood, not the attainment itself.
You mean once you have the attainment you stop practicing it? That does not correspond to how I understand buddhahood. YMMV.
I have no idea how you would legitimately conclude that. Actualization of attainment is practice.
I can’t understand why you are bothering to object to my initial point.
reiun
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Because I believe achieving buddhahood is not the highest practice. Actualization of buddhahood, imo, is.
Bristollad
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Bristollad »

reiun wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:48 am Because I believe achieving buddhahood is not the highest practice. Actualization of buddhahood, imo, is.
I don't want to intrude but personally, I don't understand how you can make a distinction between achieving Buddhahood and actualisation of Buddhahood. A buddha without effort continually works for the benefit of all sentient beings, that's what achieving Buddhahood means...
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

Bristollad wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:40 am
reiun wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:48 am Because I believe achieving buddhahood is not the highest practice. Actualization of buddhahood, imo, is.
I don't want to intrude but personally, I don't understand how you can make a distinction between achieving Buddhahood and actualisation of Buddhahood. A buddha without effort continually works for the benefit of all sentient beings, that's what achieving Buddhahood means...
I tried to explain that, but to no avail.
reiun
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Bristollad wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:40 am
reiun wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:48 am Because I believe achieving buddhahood is not the highest practice. Actualization of buddhahood, imo, is.
I don't want to intrude but personally, I don't understand how you can make a distinction between achieving Buddhahood and actualisation of Buddhahood. A buddha without effort continually works for the benefit of all sentient beings, that's what achieving Buddhahood means...
I wouldn't try to refute that theory for the twenty-some cosmic buddhas of mythology, fwiw. You can consider this outside of Buddhism, but my theory is that I don't believe any human will be perfect and not struggle, regardless.
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:23 pm
Bristollad wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:40 am
reiun wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:48 am Because I believe achieving buddhahood is not the highest practice. Actualization of buddhahood, imo, is.
I don't want to intrude but personally, I don't understand how you can make a distinction between achieving Buddhahood and actualisation of Buddhahood. A buddha without effort continually works for the benefit of all sentient beings, that's what achieving Buddhahood means...
I wouldn't try to refute that theory for the twenty-some cosmic buddhas of mythology, fwiw. You can consider this outside of Buddhism, but my theory is that I don't believe any human will be perfect and not struggle, regardless.
So you actually reject buddhahood. Interesting.
reiun
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Actually, I like the theory of buddhahood quite a bit, but it is unrealistic. I prefer to keep an open, if skeptical, mind. It works as an aspiration for us all, certainly.
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:40 pm Actually, I like the theory of buddhahood quite a bit, but it is unrealistic. I prefer to keep an open, if skeptical, mind. It works as an aspiration for us all, certainly.
It seems we are not discussing the same thing. Hence the disconnect.
Natan
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:57 pm
Bristollad wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:40 am
reiun wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:48 am Because I believe achieving buddhahood is not the highest practice. Actualization of buddhahood, imo, is.
I don't want to intrude but personally, I don't understand how you can make a distinction between achieving Buddhahood and actualisation of Buddhahood. A buddha without effort continually works for the benefit of all sentient beings, that's what achieving Buddhahood means...
I tried to explain that, but to no avail.
Buddhahood is not achieved, remember? Buddhahood is spontaneous beneficial activities of body, speech and mind.
Last edited by Natan on Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:57 pm
Bristollad wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:40 am
I don't want to intrude but personally, I don't understand how you can make a distinction between achieving Buddhahood and actualisation of Buddhahood. A buddha without effort continually works for the benefit of all sentient beings, that's what achieving Buddhahood means...
I tried to explain that, but to no avail.
Buddhahood is not achieved, remember? Buddhahood is spontaneous beneficial activities of body, speech and mind.
Sure it is. There is a difference between the basis and the result. The basis is called the basis because it’s nature has not been realized. That’s what the path is for. Even though these three things are just the same in suchness, the result does not happen without the path. That’s just the way it is. Just observe yourself.
reiun
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:43 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:57 pm

I tried to explain that, but to no avail.
Buddhahood is not achieved, remember? Buddhahood is spontaneous beneficial activities of body, speech and mind.
Sure it is. There is a difference between the basis and the result. The basis is called the basis because it’s nature has not been realized. That’s what the path is for. Even though these three things are just the same in suchness, the result does not happen without the path.
Basis and result are both dynamic, not static. The path is actualization.
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:57 pm That’s just the way it is.
Oh wait! Never mind, case closed.
Malcolm
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Re: Highest form of meditation?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:40 am Basis and result are both dynamic, not static.
That does matter. One is cause; the other, result.
The path is actualization
.

Yes, but that actualization is limited and impaired by the amount of traces of obscuration of affliction and knowledge one possesses. Buddhas are not limited or impaired in this way. The way they achieve this matters. Therefor, the highest practice is the attainment of buddhahood. That has requisites.
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