"Boundaries of perception"

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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Jesse
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"Boundaries of perception"

Post by Jesse »

Hi all, I had a few experiences while meditating recently that I pondered asking for help with. I decided against it; but again today I feel like perhaps seeking advice could be beneficial to me. I don't know. Anyway, here it goes.

I reached a point in my meditation where; All mental activity remains(sometimes), thoughts keep arising, and ceasing. Emotions, do the same. The difference is that they have no effect on the mind at all. As if what we normally think of as the mind, has been surpassed. Everything in the mind remains the same, and even though activity continues (but is not grasped), this activity is instantly understood for what it is. So there is no need to "Do anything about it", it's simply left alone.

This applies to non-meditation as well, but during actual meditation session this first coincided with intense bliss, but staying there longer the bliss gives way to a much more peaceful feeling. A stillness, or silence. Perhaps is how I would describe it. There is joy, it's just subtle. The thoughts are sparse however.

As for the activity -- You could even calm it if you so chose to; but there seems to be no point in doing so. As the activity is harmless when It's nature is understood-- illusory; moments of phenomena arise, exist momentarily, and then pass away. I began to see that this applies not only to thoughts, emotions, and other mental activity -- but also to perception itself. The perception of having a body, of existing, of occupying a place in space and time.

This is what I at least thought I understood in that moment -- It is only by clinging/misapprehending that rebirth occurs, in each moment to proceeding moment. This misapprehension creates self, not just in the story of thoughts, and emotions, but also our physical existence. What I think I perceived is that consciousness has no boundaries or borders.

I felt that if I continued to rest in this state, with my attention fixated on my "perceived borders" -- that any limits to my perceived body would have vanished outright. I decided to continue a bit longer with this meditation, and the next thing I perceived actually scared me enough to stop the meditation. What I perceived was that Agency itself, is also empty. By agency, I believe I am referring to ( Cetanā ); or to put it in a more understandable term - free will.

This actually scared me quite a bit (I'm not totally sure why, it scared me.) , and I cut the meditation short, and have not attempted it again.

Having some hindsight, It may have been the idea that both -- my body would 'disappear', and not just my body; but any notion of being a being with it's own volition, or agency, I was unsure what the experience would be like - I think that is what scared me.

So, I am just curious if I should continue these meditations (uninstructed of course), or should I halt them, and simply practice basic mindfulness for a while?
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Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
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A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
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Arnoud
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Re: "Boundaries of perception"

Post by Arnoud »

I am sorry to bring this up but are you the same person who was dealing with some mental health issues a while ago? Although you might very well be on the right path, if you are that person, I would recommend you only continue under the guidance of someone you trust.
There are enough stories of people who have fallen into psychosis after experiencing what it seems you are heading towards. Of course, there have also been people for whom it has been an extremely profound experience/insight.
Jesse
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Re: "Boundaries of perception"

Post by Jesse »

Arnoud wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:05 am I am sorry to bring this up but are you the same person who was dealing with some mental health issues a while ago? Although you might very well be on the right path, if you are that person, I would recommend you only continue under the guidance of someone you trust.
There are enough stories of people who have fallen into psychosis after experiencing what it seems you are heading towards. Of course, there have also been people for whom it has been an extremely profound experience/insight.

I do in fact live with mental illness, however it is under control for the time being. I am on medication, and see a doctor bi-monthly. It is a struggle living with mental illness -- that said, I am mostly comfortable perusing the path alone. When help presents itself, I usually take it. However, I am mostly a solo-traveler.

Thank you for your concern. If I do feel that my mental health is in jeopardy, I have people I can get help from.

As a note: The last time I had a full blown "Psychotic Episode" was around 4 years ago. (Perhaps 3.5); This was primarily due to other circumstances in my life, which have resolved themselves. I am actually in a relatively good place with my mental health. There are still days I struggle, but that is normal for people with specific conditions.
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Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
Arnoud
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Re: "Boundaries of perception"

Post by Arnoud »

Glad you are doing well. And wishing you all the best on your path. Hopefully someone more qualified will chip in.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: "Boundaries of perception"

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Your experience is very much like that of the person who has a jogging routine. They go out every day, consistently.
One day the jogger finds a $100 bill! Hooray! Wonderful!
But now they start thinking about all of the different things they could do with that money.
“Should I save it? Should I invest it or try the lottery? Should I buy new jogging shoes?” and so on.
But wherever they do, save the money or spend it, it won’t affect their jogging very much, if at all.
But if they get carried away with it, thinking they should jog further or more often, because then they might find more money, it will become an obsession.

Everybody who goes out walking or jogging every day will eventually find some money or other object, or will encounter things that they never knew were there before.
Likewise, everybody who meditates has profound experiences. But this isn’t because the experiences themselves hold any incredible power to them. It’s because we usually have a very limited perspective. Then, when the we meditate and the mind opens up, it seems really amazing. It’s like the person who gets high for the first time.

Try not to over-analyze meditation experiences. Remember, if you meditate every day, there’s a chance to have 365 more meditation experiences over the next year. So, don’t get stuck on this one.
EMPTIFUL.
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LastLegend
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Re: "Boundaries of perception"

Post by LastLegend »

Thoughts can play trick on us. Same with smoking pot one can have psychosis with overwhelming thoughts associated with fear. Possibly these thoughts been suppressed. Perhaps learn proper way to release them without getting caught up.
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Matt J
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Re: "Boundaries of perception"

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Jesse wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:44 pm So, I am just curious if I should continue these meditations (uninstructed of course), or should I halt them, and simply practice basic mindfulness for a while?
Why "uninstructed of course"? It seems like you're making progress, and now would be the perfect time to get on board with a teacher.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
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Jesse
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Re: "Boundaries of perception"

Post by Jesse »

Arnoud wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:00 pm Glad you are doing well. And wishing you all the best on your path. Hopefully someone more qualified will chip in.
Thank you- mental illness is a touchy subject with me. I always feel a bit slighted by the fact I have to live my life with it(angry at circumstances). So when others mention it I get a bit hot headed, no insult was intended.
LastLegend wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:54 pm by LastLegend » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:54 am
Thoughts can play trick on us. Same with smoking pot one can have psychosis with overwhelming thoughts associated with fear. Possibly these thoughts been suppressed. Perhaps learn proper way to release them without getting caught up.
I realized after having the fear response that it was just more clinging -- I knew that I would not actually vanish. The feeling of 'alarm' was very strong though. After seeing (at least believing I saw) the emptiness of volition, the first thought that ran through my mind was : "well, wait.. who am I then?" - Lol. I laughed a bit about the thought.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:05 pm Your experience is very much like that of the person who has a jogging routine. They go out every day, consistently.
One day the jogger finds a $100 bill! Hooray! Wonderful!
But now they start thinking about all of the different things they could do with that money.
“Should I save it? Should I invest it or try the lottery? Should I buy new jogging shoes?” and so on.
But wherever they do, save the money or spend it, it won’t affect their jogging very much, if at all.
But if they get carried away with it, thinking they should jog further or more often, because then they might find more money, it will become an obsession.

Everybody who goes out walking or jogging every day will eventually find some money or other object, or will encounter things that they never knew were there before.
Likewise, everybody who meditates has profound experiences. But this isn’t because the experiences themselves hold any incredible power to them. It’s because we usually have a very limited perspective. Then, when the we meditate and the mind opens up, it seems really amazing. It’s like the person who gets high for the first time.

Try not to over-analyze meditation experiences. Remember, if you meditate every day, there’s a chance to have 365 more meditation experiences over the next year. So, don’t get stuck on this one.
Your right, meditations don't always "take us further", what I meant specifically was pursuing a very specific analyzation type meditation while in a pretty deep state of concentration (deep state for me anyway). I was specifically increasing my concentration to a certain point, and then analyzing the state of my experience.

I had actually left something out; I didn't panic per-say; and I ended the meditation normally; dedicating merit and such; and I even felt good after the meditation - reduced clinging/grasping, and more clarity throughout that day. So, what happened afterwards is what really made me hesitant to do this meditation again.

I am hesitant to bring this up; because I am unsure if this is a normal thing to happen with these meditations; or if it is related to mental illness. (I simply do not wish to be judged for having certain afflictions)

About a day after this meditation I was writing some poetry; and while writing I had the distinct feeling of being detached from my thoughts/emotions/mental phenomena. In a proper; healthy way. That is with right understanding. (Mindfulness practice). The bit that concerned me happened a bit later in the day. When I re-read the poem I had written. I suddenly felt that " I " had not written the poem; the poem was not "mine". This alarmed me greatly, and upset me.

This is why I have been pondering that meditation experience so much -- and have been concerned by it. I suddenly felt like I was "losing' something precious to me. (My poetry, and by association; myself) I know this is delusional, but sometimes we can know something is a delusion, and yet be unable to "not feel it", or not be "concerned" with it. This resolved itself over the next day or so. However, I remain a bit afraid of the effects of analyzing 'selfnessness' any further because of this occurrence. I am still meditating; but rather I am doing simple mindfulness meditation without any "meditation on emptiness".
Matt J wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:45 pm
Jesse wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:44 pm So, I am just curious if I should continue these meditations (uninstructed of course), or should I halt them, and simply practice basic mindfulness for a while?
Why "uninstructed of course"? It seems like you're making progress, and now would be the perfect time to get on board with a teacher.
To be honest, I have pondered that bit myself. It's mostly just due to habituation. Due to anxiety problems I tend to avoid others. I have the distinct feeling that I may be at a point where I need further help, I am just reluctant to seek it out.

Thanks everyone for your input. I was nervous posting this, as I tend to just try to solve problems myself. Some of this has been helpful though, and I appreciate it.
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Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
Arnoud
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Re: "Boundaries of perception"

Post by Arnoud »

Hi Jesse,
I didn’t read any insults in your response.

I think the point I was trying to make is that an experienced teacher might tell you to push on and if the experience is a little much to handle, they will be able to help you through on the other side. A while ago I listened to Shinzen Young on Guru Viking and they were talking about a sort of dark knight of the soul stuff for some people after certain experiences.

Anyway, I am glad you are doing well and I hope you feel most people here are supportive of you and others, with or without MH issues.
Jesse
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Re: "Boundaries of perception"

Post by Jesse »

Arnoud wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:11 pm Hi Jesse,
I didn’t read any insults in your response.

I think the point I was trying to make is that an experienced teacher might tell you to push on and if the experience is a little much to handle, they will be able to help you through on the other side. A while ago I listened to Shinzen Young on Guru Viking and they were talking about a sort of dark knight of the soul stuff for some people after certain experiences.

Anyway, I am glad you are doing well and I hope you feel most people here are supportive of you and others, with or without MH issues.
Thank you. I have been through something similar -- it's a long story and I don't want to get into it; but yes misapprehending some of the teachings led me down a long dark path of extremes, particularly nihilism. I was in this place for half a decade at least, and am glad to be done with it, and back to real dharma practice.

I would not be on this forum if I didn't not find it beneficial and helpful. So I appreciate the help and insights I find/receive here.
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Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
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LastLegend
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Re: "Boundaries of perception"

Post by LastLegend »

Examine fear it might be the cause of various disturbance. Examine non-self.
It’s eye blinking.
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