Non-directive meditation only?

[Dreams]

In terms of practice, is non-directive meditation (e.g. shikantaza) all that a practicioner may need? Is there anything that non-directive meditation can't do or provide? Can and or should one live on non-directive meditation alone, and expect to realize the whole nine yards, siddhis and everything?

[narhwal90]

What you do off the cushion may be more important than which practice you choose to do on the cushion.

[Jesse]

In my personal experience, I would say not entirely. While meditation bestows states of clarity, the effects are temporary, and it sort of requires both understanding, and dedication to have those effects benefit you in daily life.

For example when the Jhanas suppress desire, and other obfuscations, that effect can last for hours, up to days. You can use that to maintain a higher degree of mindfulness throughout the normal day.. while working/going out, etc.

I really can't imagine being able to utilize the insights, and states gained through meditation without a thorough understanding, and grounding in other practices, and teachings from the Buddha-dharma.

Even in Zen, meditation is usually accompanied by other teachings, and practices.

[Matt J]

Based on my limited personal experience, I would not recommend it, unless you have the highest capacity. I think there is something to be gained by other practices, whether working with shamatha, Madhyamaka, koans, or rushens.

Also, shikantaza-type practice on its own gets pretty dry in my experience.

In terms of practice, is non-directive meditation (e.g. shikantaza) all that a practicioner may need? Is there anything that non-directive meditation can't do or provide? Can and or should one live on non-directive meditation alone, and expect to realize the whole nine yards, siddhis and everything?

[Dreams]

What you do off the cushion may be more important than which practice you choose to do on the cushion.

Yes, I had to hear this, thank you.

In my personal experience, I would say not entirely. While meditation bestows states of clarity, the effects are temporary, and it sort of requires both understanding, and dedication to have those effects benefit you in daily life.

For example when the Jhanas suppress desire, and other obfuscations, that effect can last for hours, up to days. You can use that to maintain a higher degree of mindfulness throughout the normal day.. while working/going out, etc.

I really can't imagine being able to utilize the insights, and states gained through meditation without a thorough understanding, and grounding in other practices, and teachings from the Buddha-dharma.

Even in Zen, meditation is usually accompanied by other teachings, and practices.

I definitely agree, yes, you probably can't just go dhyana-mode and expect things to work from 'just sitting'. You need discernment, etc., obviously. But, it's more like... I'm referring to a situation where someone already /has/ all the wisdom they may need, and everything else--I'm wondering about the meditative practice alone--would they, can they, achieve anything and everything, with just non-directive meditation?

[Jesse]

What you do off the cushion may be more important than which practice you choose to do on the cushion.

Yes, I had to hear this, thank you.

In my personal experience, I would say not entirely. While meditation bestows states of clarity, the effects are temporary, and it sort of requires both understanding, and dedication to have those effects benefit you in daily life.

For example when the Jhanas suppress desire, and other obfuscations, that effect can last for hours, up to days. You can use that to maintain a higher degree of mindfulness throughout the normal day.. while working/going out, etc.

I really can't imagine being able to utilize the insights, and states gained through meditation without a thorough understanding, and grounding in other practices, and teachings from the Buddha-dharma.

Even in Zen, meditation is usually accompanied by other teachings, and practices.

I definitely agree, yes, you probably can't just go dhyana-mode and expect things to work from 'just sitting'. You need discernment, etc., obviously. But, it's more like... I'm referring to a situation where someone already /has/ all the wisdom they may need, and everything else--I'm wondering about the meditative practice alone--would they, can they, achieve anything and everything, with just non-directive meditation?

It's possible to gain realization that way, but will those realizations ultimately be helpful, or transform suffering? Hard to say. I think with the higher realizations, it becomes even more important to have a teacher, and work within an established tradition. It can prevent alot of mishaps, wasted time, and suffering.

[LastLegend]

In terms of practice, is non-directive meditation (e.g. shikantaza) all that a practicioner may need? Is there anything that non-directive meditation can't do or provide? Can and or should one live on non-directive meditation alone, and expect to realize the whole nine yards, siddhis and everything?

I think yes.

You need to know what thought is. It’s not that obvious that there is fine subtle thoughts they appear as if they are not present.

[SilenceMonkey]

In terms of practice, is non-directive meditation (e.g. shikantaza) all that a practicioner may need? Is there anything that non-directive meditation can't do or provide? Can and or should one live on non-directive meditation alone, and expect to realize the whole nine yards, siddhis and everything?

I've heard of people attaining some siddhis with Chan practice... they usually keep quiet about what it is they actually attain. But sometimes there is talk about a practitioner who knows what other people are thinking. I'm not sure it would give the same kinds of siddhis as you may find with other more esoteric methods, but the best siddhi is to be liberated from samsara. And that, I believe shikantaza can deliver... If you have the right conditions and practice in the right way.

Now whether or not one can attain the goal with shikantaza alone... (I assume we're talking full blown buddhahood, not merely liberation from samsara) That's a very big question that one should not take lightly. I'm not sure I would trust anyone on the internet for that one... better to talk with living masters with realization of the true nature. And one master over here may have a response somewhat different from master over there.... But if you want to go the whole nine yards (whatever that means to you), it is probably best to find someone living who has achieved it and can show you how to do it.

*

I don't think any buddhist meditation will give you every siddhi imaginable. For example, there are many things that shamans can do that buddhists often aren't interested in. Such as performing healings, making predictions, travelling into other realms of existence, communicating with ancestors, etc... Every practice (meditation or otherwise) has its own purpose, and therefore will have a certain set of possible results. For example, not every practice will inspire in you boundless love and compassion, not every practice will purify your karma, not every practice will grow your ability to analyze the subtle nature of phenomena that arise in the mind, and so on... I doubt shikantaza would allow one to contact the dakini realms, for instance. But if you have the capacity and the merit, it could allow you to realize the nature of reality -- emptiness.