Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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LastLegend
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Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by LastLegend »

reiun wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:43 pm
LastLegend wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:25 pm It’s because the perception of Zazen is wrong...dead end on cushion no Bodhisattvayana intent.
LastLegend wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:33 pm I am waiting for someone who would say something different from my claim.
The supreme meditation method is not any technique of manipulating thoughts, being "mindful", or "staying in the moment," but rather to turn around and directly recognize the luminous*, boundless nature of one's own mind.
Meido Moore Roshi: The Rinzai Zen Way, p. 17

*One of our expert members here has offered that luminous also means "pure"

So there are two distinct things. Are they? Could people bring this to discussion.
It’s eye blinking.
jimmi
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by jimmi »

There are not two distinct things. There is no benefit in excluding anything from the scope of meditation. Manipulating thoughts may not be the ‘supreme’ meditation but it has its time and place in the process of turning around and arriving at direct recognition.
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LastLegend
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by LastLegend »

It’s too early to say what supreme and what isn’t.
We all don’t have equal insights...
If grasping is present how can it not? How can we be sure that there is no grasping? Given that there are subtlest thoughts that we don’t think they are present?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by jimmi »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:55 pm
No need to say, but if saying helps then go ahead. Insight will look after itself.
I accept/assume that thoughts and grasping are always present. Why make a problem of that? “Recognizing the luminous, boundless nature of one’s own mind” encompasses it all. It may be a most terrible maelstrom or the most blissful of blissful states. Whether grasped or not, any circumstance or condition is transient.
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LastLegend
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

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I am not making a problem. Supreme is a fault assertion.

Of the issue the question is begged: how is luminous when we closed our eyes?
It’s eye blinking.
jimmi
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by jimmi »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:17 pm
Can the eyes be closed when the luminous is recognized?
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LastLegend
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

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jimmi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:05 pm
LastLegend wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:17 pm
Can the eyes be closed when the luminous is recognized?
So when eyes are closed how does mind luminous itself?
It’s eye blinking.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:12 pm
jimmi wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:05 pm
LastLegend wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:17 pm
Can the eyes be closed when the luminous is recognized?
So when eyes are closed how does mind luminous itself?
Open or closed makes no difference.
But just to be sure,
Try one open and one closed.
After all, what is the sound of one eye open?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
reiun
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by reiun »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:17 pm I am not making a problem. Supreme is a fault assertion.

Of the issue the question is begged: how is luminous when we closed our eyes?
Since you are discussing a quote by Meido Roshi, why not just ask him for clarification? No one here can give a comparable answer.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

reiun wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:10 pm
LastLegend wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:17 pm I am not making a problem. Supreme is a fault assertion.

Of the issue the question is begged: how is luminous when we closed our eyes?
Since you are discussing a quote by Meido Roshi, why not just ask him for clarification? No one here can give a comparable answer.
In the Surangama Sutra, the Buddha elaborates on the fact that even when your eyes are closed or blocked so that you can’t see, the mind’s function of seeing (“eye-consciousness”) still operates. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be able to see that you can’t see anything. That visual knowing which does not rely on any visual input is a demonstration of the mind’s luminosity. I’m
Not sure if this is what you are asking,
but there it is.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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LastLegend
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by LastLegend »

I just want to have the meaning of luminous clarified.

Eye consciousness isn’t the only thing that’s there. In fact, eye consciousness comes after.
It’s eye blinking.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

LastLegend wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:45 pm I just want to have the meaning of luminous clarified.

Eye consciousness isn’t the only thing that’s there. In fact, eye consciousness comes after.
Yes, that specific thing comes after
But it’s like you can follow a river back to its source.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by jimmi »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:33 am
LastLegend wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:45 pm I just want to have the meaning of luminous clarified.
In fact, eye consciousness comes after.
Yes, that specific thing comes after
What? How so?
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LastLegend
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by LastLegend »

jimmi wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:44 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:33 am
LastLegend wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:45 pm I just want to have the meaning of luminous clarified.
In fact, eye consciousness comes after.
Yes, that specific thing comes after
What? How so?
He has it backwards but it works the same way. Like before consciousness arises, how is original wisdom?
It’s eye blinking.
jimmi
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by jimmi »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:30 am
jimmi wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:44 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:33 am

Yes, that specific thing comes after
What? How so?
He has it backwards but it works the same way. Like before consciousness arises, how is original wisdom?
Not backward or forward,
Not before or after.
What are you guys talking about?
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LastLegend
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by LastLegend »

jimmi wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:03 am
LastLegend wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:30 am
jimmi wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:44 am

What? How so?
He has it backwards but it works the same way. Like before consciousness arises, how is original wisdom?
Not backward or forward,
Not before or after.
What are you guys talking about?
:lol:

Well if empty nature is no thing yet not obstructed or concealed, whatever arises from it is after. But you are right not attached to before or after.
It’s eye blinking.
jimmi
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by jimmi »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:08 am
:lol:

Well if empty nature is no thing yet not obstructed or concealed, whatever arises from it is after. But you are right not attached to before or after.
Is empty nature no thing? I don’t know.
If empty nature is no thing, how does any thing arise from it?
Malcolm
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by Malcolm »

jimmi wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:54 am
LastLegend wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:08 am
:lol:

Well if empty nature is no thing yet not obstructed or concealed, whatever arises from it is after. But you are right not attached to before or after.
Is empty nature no thing? I don’t know.
If empty nature is no thing, how does any thing arise from it?
Yes.
Nothing does.
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by LastLegend »

jimmi wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:54 am
LastLegend wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:08 am
:lol:

Well if empty nature is no thing yet not obstructed or concealed, whatever arises from it is after. But you are right not attached to before or after.
Is empty nature no thing? I don’t know.
If empty nature is no thing, how does any thing arise from it?
What knows nothing arises from it? :lol:
It’s eye blinking.
Buddha Shares
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Re: Manipulating thoughts versus meditation

Post by Buddha Shares »

If nature was empty, how would we rise up from the star dust. How would we even have a discussion about closed or open eyes or if manipulating thoughts would be bad or not compare to meditation.

Thoughts are just neurons in our brains and there for no matter in what state or how you call it, it will always manipulate any other thought. It's how creativity rises in our minds by who this is stronger. It's by manipulating thoughts that build new bridges in our brains and help us to connect one thought to a other.

So when your in a meditation thoughts com up but no matter what you do with them it's your thought deciding what to do with it and there for you manipulate an other thought. See it like when you think of getting a glas of water but on your way you think maybe i should go to the toilet first. One thought let's to an other. So the question should be are you aware of those thoughts or not.

Thank you for reading and have a nice day.
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